Better Confidence

Published in

The Better Show Blog

61 min readNov 12, 2018

On this episode we discuss how to improve your confidence and overcome self-doubt. We explore the difference between self-confidence and over-confidence, techniques for dealing with negative self-talk and ways to feel more comfortable in your skin.

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Highlights from this episode include:

Mental exercises for interrupting the cycle of self-doubt, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and March’s first Drake reference
The brain’s Default Mode Network concept
How a meditation practice can be used to deal with self-doubt
How nutrition & exercise impact self confidence
and lots more!

We look forward to hearing about your experiences and wisdom on this topic so drop us a note on Facebook, Instagram, & Twitter and share your story with others in The Better Show community. Or you can email us at hi@bettershow.io. We can’t wait to hear from you!

Show Notes

2:49 — Confidence: born with it or acquired?
4:09 — How self doubt is self-perpetuating cycle
10:11 — Using self-doubt as a tool for making better resolutions
11:57 — March’s years of impostor syndrome at work
14:25 — March’s anxiety about fatherhood
17:13 — How early encouragement ( or lack thereof) make a difference in building self-confidence
22:00 — Learning to back away from overconfidence
24:11 — Mental exercises for interrupting the cycle of self-doubt, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and March’s first Drake reference
28:48 — Noting vs Diffusing techniques
30:25 — Important terminology to better understand self-confidence
32:10 — How a meditation practice can be used to deal with self-doubt
36:00 — The brain’s Default Mode Network concept
38:40 — How nutrition & exercise impact self confidence
44:08 — “Dutch courage” alcohol for confidence
48:20 — How your confidence changes once outside your social support network
53:13 — Prescription drugs, nootropics and supplements for improving self-confidence
55:05 — Power posing for confidence: myth or fact?
56:30 — How to deal with setbacks and common confidence crushers
1:05:47 — After Show: worst email etiquette

Episode Transcript

Ian Mikutel: [00:00:00] Here’s the deal. If you’re listening to this and you use any interesting signatures please let us know if you are in the UK and use Cheers. Tell us if it’s OK for people outside to do the same.

March Rogers: [00:00:11] I think I’m going to I think I’m going to start signing off my email with adieu.

Ian Mikutel: [00:00:16] And we work with some French folks. So just go ahead and see what you get back. Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

Ian Mikutel: [00:00:24] Welcome to episode 60 of the better show. Today we discuss how to have better confidence.

Ian Mikutel: [00:00:43] It is a show for people who want to get better by people who love getting better. And that’s that’s us.

March Rogers: [00:00:50] When you start thinking about all the different ways that we can improve and we can get better and we can help the people around us get better. It’s such a wide world that covers almost every aspect of human experience and daily life.

Darren Austin: [00:01:02] I’m pretty excited about building a community of like minded people.

Ian Mikutel: [00:01:09] Hello everybody and welcome to the the better show. I am Ian Mikutel I’m Darren Austin and I’m March Rogers. And on this episode we are talking about how to have better confidence. And this is really cool guys because this was inspired by a listener who wrote into us a very nice e-mail.

Darren Austin: [00:01:26] A really touching note.

Ian Mikutel: [00:01:27] Yeah really touching.

Ian Mikutel: [00:01:28] I want to highlight a little bit of it right off the top of the show to give people a little bit of context for how just we were inspired to do this episode. So this is from a listener who said quote “I’m generally a shy introverted person and I’ve been dealing with a lack of confidence and a lack of self-worth. But this podcast is definitely challenged me to put myself out of my comfort zone and I’ve noticed the difference on who I was in January and who I am now.”.

Ian Mikutel: [00:01:53] We just got this e-mail maybe a couple weeks ago.

Ian Mikutel: [00:01:56] “I still have a lot to grow and I see more room for personal growth when it comes to being more confident or convincing myself that I am worthy.” And so there is more stuff in the email talking about some of our recent episodes and what they’ve used in tracking different things about their you know competence and health and all different things.

Ian Mikutel: [00:02:15] But that the fact that they said they are really looking to grow more incompetent stood out to us and we said hey that could be a great episode topic. So that’s how we’re here and we are taking our new tact our new approach where March has led for this episode and so Darren and I are gonna be listening and learning and probing and asking some interesting questions. But. Yeah I’m excited because I think confidence is a maybe a quick quick thing I’ll throw out there for both you guys.

Ian Mikutel: [00:02:43] Do you think competence is something you’re born with or you acquire?

Darren Austin: [00:02:49] Oh I think you acquire it.

March Rogers: [00:02:52] Yeah I think there’s probably I mean everything is this this amalgam of nature and nurture. But I think it can be acquired and I think confidence is is gained through action and through practice rather variance. Yeah yeah yeah. Rather than confidence leading to action action leads to confidence. Yeah.

Darren Austin: [00:03:12] Oh I like the way you said that.

Ian Mikutel: [00:03:13] I mean just a personal story for me out right off the top of the bat. Like I started podcasting in 2005 from my bedroom as a high schooler with a group of people had no idea how to host anything. Never did that never did public speaking and it’s funny because we did one hundred and sixty nine episodes of that old podcast and you could literally have I have a recording of me learning how to be a more confident speaker over the years and it’s it’s really cool to actually have that recorded. But that came purely through experience in doing it. Like you just said March think it wasn’t I wasn’t just born to be a great speaker right. Although I do think there are people out there who have that quality but I think it’s it’s promising that we both all think that because it means that through this episode you should be able to get something out of it and you can practice that you can get better at it like it’s not just a nature versus nurture question.

Ian Mikutel: [00:04:01] So yeah yeah I’m excited. Let’s let’s dive into the why it matters March. So tell us why confidence matters.

March Rogers: [00:04:09] Well first off I think that that self-doubt is something that affects everybody. No one is immune to this. Here’s an example of this. This is a quote from Maya Angelou one of the most successful sort of authors and poets of our time. She said I’ve written 11 books but each time I think oh they’re going to find out now I’ve run a game on everybody and they’re going to find me out. So this is someone who’s like at the top of the success of their career and their industry and they’re feeling that way. So just to echo that it’s sort of built into humans to to have some of these feelings. It doesn’t make you weird or strange dream to have them. They’re just very common. And so it’s not about you know because I think some of the negative feedback loop with this which can help which can really hurt people with self-doubt is that they start to think that they’re worthless worthless and they start to think that oh I’m the only person who thinks this which sort of exacerbates that that feeling that self-doubt. They think that everybody else’s got themselves squared away and sorted out and they’re the only one who has this sort of problem. OK so why does that matter. So we know that self-doubt can stop someone from achieving your goals or even making basic decisions. This is a quote I like from Shakespeare about this. Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt. And so there’s this thing of like you know Honore de Balzac is something similar “when you doubt your power you give power to your doubt”.

Darren Austin: [00:05:37] And so there’s this Oh that’s good too.

March Rogers: [00:05:39] Yeah it’s a yeah. I mean these are these are people again. I picked them because they they really have succeeded right in in every way that we would think about the fact that we know Shakespeare’s name are balls X name you know this long after their death that means that they’ve really left a mark on society and yet they when they were alive hesitated they worried and they struggled with this self-doubt and self-confidence problem. One last little thing that sort of rounding out how we should think about why this matters is it’s estimated through a variety of different research that we all have about 60 to 70 thousand thoughts a day. So like each individual little thought. Now what’s interesting is that it’s sort of estimated that about 98 percent of those thoughts are repetitions. They’re the same thing happening over and over again. And so we are in the way that we think we are building habit. We are building grooves in our brain about how we think and that means that that inner critic the more that you think about those critical thoughts them the stronger that groove becomes the the deeper the habit becomes to repeat those same things to yourself over and over and over again. So that is both is a double edged sword right because on the one hand that means it’s going to be you can’t like take a pill. Right you’re going to it’s going to be hard work to change it but it does mean it can be changed and you can replace those repeated habitual negative self-critical thoughts with positive self reinforcing thoughts and we’re gonna talk about how you can do that.

Ian Mikutel: [00:07:07] It’s funny it’s funny when you said the Maya Angela thing and basically her quote was saying that she has a little bit of self-doubt in the back of her mind even though she’s really successful. I was thinking of the opposite and I could think of a couple examples throughout history in modern times with leaders we have like where they project just total competence one hundred percent of the time right. You never hear or see or even think about them having any doubt or competence issues. I think the flipside to that which I view almost as a positive to anyone listening is I think here’s what you guys think having a little bit of self-doubt is actually a form of humility so if you never ever know anything but confidence all the time you’re going to come off as a little bit of a you know just arrogant and arrogant.

Ian Mikutel: [00:07:56] Yeah. Thank you. I can think of the word but do you know what I mean. Yeah. I don’t know if this self-doubt and humility are exactly the same I understand there’s some differences there but I think it can lead to humility at least.

Darren Austin: [00:08:07] I agree and I actually this is something I’ve personally sort of struggled with. I’ve you know I was brought up in the Catholic Church and one of the one of the sort of the guiding I guess examples of the principles were it was all about the importance of humility and the importance of not. And I even remember my my parents like you know if if I were doing something as a kid saying something like looking down on somebody or making a snide remark they you know I remember them saying like wait Who do you think you are you’re you’re just like them. Right. And so I’ve sort of had this humility as part of who I am and how I was brought up. But I agree with you. I actually think that the challenge for me has been that sometimes that humility goes too far. I bring it everywhere I go it’s just a who. It’s a part of who I am and I’m frankly very proud of it. But I also think it has a tendency to undermine confidence in it. I’ve noticed at different periods of my life when that’s happened where I’ve been self-deprecating you know just as a way to sort of diffuse attention or a particular tension or something like that. And I remember specifically my younger brother said to me one time I made some sort of self-deprecating joke or whatever my brother was like Hey man stop it. That is not cool like you. I look up to you. And when you do that you know constantly you’re undermining your own confidence and your. And it’s just not cool. And I remember that was a major point in my life where I was thinking that that what he said to me caused me to step back and say wow I’m actually undermining my own effectiveness in all of this and I’m hurting people around me because I’m saying things you know in attempting to be in jest but it was just not it wasn’t productive. So I totally agree with what you’re saying.

March Rogers: [00:09:51] Yeah yeah I think I mean this is a really great point. And in some ways the question that you’re asking there is the way into how how you can sort of make use of tools to improve your self-confidence which is it’s not about the feeling of self-doubt. It’s about whether or not it inhibits your ability to make a decision or to act in the UK at least a fairly well-known broadcaster and author Alastair Campbell and he wrote “self-doubt that doesn’t lead to decision or action is ultimately self-defeating whereas self-doubt that leads to resolution of the doubts can be a remarkable source of energy and creativity” specifically because it puts a brake on your own potentially overconfidence it makes you question things and we know that questioning and being curious about things is more tied to a growth mindset right and and a sense of discovery and that sense of humility that other people may have things to teach you and you may still have things to learn can improve in general because you’re going to question the status quo like. And again that’s that’s sort of that doubt because it could could be self-doubt but it might also be doubt of. Is this the right way to do this. Just because it’s the way that it’s always been done then I think it can help you you know it can encourage you to actually make robust plans to achieve your goals because you’ll be planning to deal with whatever your inner fears are and you’ll account for them in your plants. So yeah I don’t think all self-doubt. I don’t think all self-doubt is bad at all. I think the thing that that hurts people is one is an emotional component to it where it’s potentially very wearing and tiring day in and day out to have this sort of self critic and this feeling of anxiety inside you. And then also it inhibits you from doing what you want to do with your life whether it’s getting to know yourself better whether it’s developing relationships whether it’s learning skills whether it’s the next job interview whatever it is if it’s inhibiting you then then it’s something to work on. But it is it’s not it’s not something to completely banish and you know be blithely super confident about everything ever. I think you’re right.

Ian Mikutel: [00:11:56] So Darren was really open and shared some really interesting insights March I know you had a couple personal stories too about Yeah I’m imposter syndrome at work and becoming a good father. Do you want to talk about that a little bit.

March Rogers: [00:12:07] Sure yeah. I mean I’m not just like everybody else I’m not immune to self-doubt and lack of confidence and I think for years I had this issue in my work life where I felt for a long time that at any moment people were going to realize that I didn’t know what I was doing and they’d made a terrible mistake hiring me and I should be fired at the first opportunity. You know what was interesting was it seemed to persist despite all of the signals that the opposite was true that I was valued and I was doing good work I would get positive feedback and it almost wasn’t like I I got it. I actually got very little negative feedback over the course of my career but I would fill in the gaps. I would I would find myself lying awake at night inventing problems or imagining conversations people had when I wasn’t in the room about what a disappointment I was or what a bad job I did. And none of it seemed to be true. I used to the way I used to think about it was I had a thunderstorm of anxiety in my brain and it was looking for a weathervane to have the lightning strike. So the weather vane to be happened to be work. It happened to be that thing or fear of getting fired. And so if if something else had been on my mind it would’ve been that if you know what I mean. So it was a helpful moment for me to realize that my anxiety was just looking for a for a mask to wear right for a story to tell rather than that there was truth because it feels compellingly true. It feels really real when you’re feeling it and I think that’s true of any sort of story that gets built around your sense of anxiety. But in this case it was imposter syndrome for me. So I actually never managed to solve it directly. I never solved it by you know finally convincing myself that I was you know whatever perfect at work or that I deserved to be there. I did it by addressing my anxiety as sort of an emotional level. And then the imposter syndrome feeling sort of went away. So I sort of but it haunted me for years. The other one was was about that I worried that I wouldn’t be a good father and now I mean I’ve been a father for 16 years now and so I’ve sort of got this. Yeah it’s it’s past me at this point thankfully. And whether by luck or by good judgment my son who’s 16 is turning out to be to be grace and he’s happy and healthy and smarter than me which is all you can hope for. But I did so. I didn’t grow up with my dad. My dad was not present in my life as a child and in some ways I always wanted to be the opposite of my own father as a as a dad which really was very straightforward because I didn’t really know him which was I just wanted to be present but I wanted to be there. Yeah. So that was my overriding mission as a as a father. And I was always concerned that I wasn’t either being present enough or it also became the incentive around maintaining and improving my relationship with my wife Christine because you know the reason why my dad was an around my parents broke up right now. That’s not the only thing because he could have chosen to stay involved and he chose not to. SoMr. you know that I think it’s not that you know getting divorced is the end of being a parent. But yes. So anyway that haunted me to make sure that I was I didn’t give the same experience of fatherhood to to my kids that I’d had. But yeah both of those were things that motivate you to actor too.

Ian Mikutel: [00:15:56] Right. That’s actually what it is going it was the word choice. There was super fascinating to me like yeah the hunting versus motivating. They the same thing. Was it the same at the same time or was it more of a fear than a motivator.

March Rogers: [00:16:11] It’s good. Yeah that’s a good question. Note that the feeling of the two the difference between the imposter syndrome and being worried about being fired versus the being concerned about being a good father they’re very different emotional states. And one of them was more of a like watchfulness. Right. I have to that the good Father one was kind of like I have to just be careful that I makes the right and intelligent choices and prioritize the right things. So it was a very active driver for me where the imposter syndrome was almost paralytic. You know like it was I was funny for me as well without when I would hold it at bay during work. So if you saw me at work you would have no idea. You would think I’m super confident super at ease super comfortable and then I can attest to that. And it would haunt me it would haunt me and keep me awake at night. Now thankfully like I said I’m I’m kind of past it but only by a year or two like this. This was with me for the first 20 years of my career. Yeah. Okay so enough about me. How about you Ian. What’s um what sort of person have you had with with self-doubt.

Ian Mikutel: [00:17:17] Yeah I have a couple examples. One I got really lucky when I was pretty young. I think it was like trying remember the exact age I think it was like second grade. Literally as I remember it somebody pulled me out of my class and said hey we think you’re a little brighter than most other kids. We’re gonna put you in the special class and like you’re gonna do some extra stuff. I really didn’t know what was going on at the time but as. OK sure. But what was interesting is many years later in 2008 so ten years ago I read Malcolm Gladwell as outliers book and he talks about this. This thing that happens in sports and it’s this idea that kids that get picked at a really early age for the all star teams in little league and soccer and all these things they’re not really at that moment much better than any other kid. But what they do get is a lot of special attention and they get a lot of extra training from coaches and guidance and in an in essentially confidence at a really young age that’s instilled in them. And I feel like I had that on the mental side of things.

Ian Mikutel: [00:18:20] I pretty much have learned now that I’ve gone out in the world that like I am not exceptionally bright like I am not one of those like Einstein types or anything like that.

Ian Mikutel: [00:18:29] But what I am is a super hard worker…

Darren Austin: [00:18:31] You’re pretty good on the scale Ian. I’m going to give it to you.

Ian Mikutel: [00:18:33] Well I’m super hard worker and I’m really curious and what I mean is that I’m not intellectually just a survivor or anything like I’ve met some of those people now that I’ve been at Microsoft and like and explored the world a bit. I think those yeah they exist.

Ian Mikutel: [00:18:48] But what I do and what I did learn was that from a really early age is that if you just it’s kind of a march of saying if you act the part you become the part so I learned over the years those like Well I think I’m extra smart. And even though I don’t necessarily feel that way and I have a little bit of doubts I’m just going to start acting that way and have some confidence because other people have confidence in me.

Ian Mikutel: [00:19:12] And and then all the sudden you become the part like I feel that way now inside of me.

Ian Mikutel: [00:19:18] Even though I didn’t start that way and that was super fascinating to just feel over the years and develop the second one.

Ian Mikutel: [00:19:24] The second example came in a little later in like high school and stuff so it was a lack of confidence in sports. And that became a game because I didn’t get picked for those all star teams when I was little. I didn’t get the extra attention I didn’t I wasn’t in the right clicks like our town it was very clicky with sports people so all the sports people’s families knew each other and they they did extra practices together but would invite other people in and you know who got on the All-Star teams I’m sure was political and who played in the games and how much time they played like it was all you know very clicky and that sort of thing.

Ian Mikutel: [00:19:56] And you were either in or out. And I wasn’t necessarily out but I certainly wasn’t in like I was a bubble boy and I was tiny like I was a small kid I wasn’t strong it wasn’t big I didn’t know about all the amazing nutritional and workout stuff that we talked about on the show back you know 15 20 years ago. So the result was I had super low confidence in that stuff but I was like gritty and determined to like try to do my best right.

Ian Mikutel: [00:20:23] So I had this weird mix of like everyone telling me you’re you’re you’re not good at this but also me just like from the intellectual side of things being really determined to figure it out.

Ian Mikutel: [00:20:35] But I could feel that there was a system working against me and it was really interesting like from a that’s a whole nother topic but from like if you feel the world is working against you kind of thing like when you first experience that your life whether it’s work or politics or you know a relationship or whatever it is there’s that first moment in your life when you’re like oh like it doesn’t matter what I do in this situation there’s a big thing working against me that’s really complex. And so for me that was sports and I felt like no matter what I did I was not going to be one of those top performers even though I really wanted it. And I really loved it. I love the idea of it.

Darren Austin: [00:21:10] You know I love what you describe about your work ethic and how that affected the way you approached all of this. I think that’s super important. I think having I think there are traits in one’s life that can counteract some of the the attendant the negative tendencies of self-doubt. And I think that you just highlighted one of them I think that’s really important.

Ian Mikutel: [00:21:30] Yeah I get that from my family too so I mean my parents are the exact same way. You know they weren’t super highly educated but they’re very successful in what they do. They’re super hard workers. If they say they’re going to do something they just make it happen. Like I’ve never seen them. I’ve never seen them say they’re gonna do a thing and then it just does it like it falls apart or whatever. Like they they they stick with it and in it it’s generational to like you know my grandparents exact same way. Yes. It’s just built in our DNA to some degree and it’s an immigrant thing you know and it’s a yeah there’s lots of reasons for it right. It’s very complex but. But so that was that was the sports one was was the lack of competence and and and all that. The last one who’s actually the opposite. And you know we’re not talking about it a ton on this episode but I’ll just throw it out there in a bit if as as I work on this trait is developing that competence over the years I sometimes need to show more humility and show a little bit of that self deprecation. I think that there and you mentioned earlier that you do really well.

Darren Austin: [00:22:29] Well I think I do too much.

Ian Mikutel: [00:22:31] Well that’s that’s fair and I take that to heart because I think that an ounce of humility can go a long way. Right. Yeah but not having an ounce can be disastrous. Right. Like if you show none it’s really bad. So I’m working on that balance my fiancee say actually when I met her three or four years ago she she brought this up to me and she you know in a joke in nice ways. She wasn’t like you know mean or anything but she’s really good about like hey you know you could show a little bit more humility in this instance or in this example. And she’s amazing at that. And so a little good reminder of that and it’s just a thing I’m working on and it’s it’s funny because you I caution I give people as I think you can go the other you couldn’t go to the other end of the spectrum right. You could go right confident and basically be showboating or be you know just just annoying.

Darren Austin: [00:23:20] So yeah nobody wants to be around that.

March Rogers: [00:23:22] It is interesting where you know a lot of times I think that overconfidence is a is someone fronting against the fact that they have some insecurity or self-doubt which I’m not saying is that sort of the case for you in some ways it might just be a sort of a habit or style of communicating that that’s what’s triggering for your your fiancee. But I think a lot of people pretend to be confidence and go too far the other way because they’re just really insecure and feeling unsure of themselves inside a trillion percent. Yeah yeah I think that confidence and humility are actually cousins to each other where overconfidence and insecurity and arrogance are close cousins to each other. Yeah that makes sense.

Ian Mikutel: [00:24:06] Yeah well that was good guys. I feel like I actually got to learn a lot about both of you in a really cool way. That was fun but let’s let’s help out our listeners now so let’s dive into some of our tips and tricks and hacks March I know you have a lot of goodness here.

March Rogers: [00:24:19] I do. Yeah. You guys what. Why don’t you sort of tell me what you’re interested in learning about what you’re curious about on this topic and we can sort of dig in that way.

Ian Mikutel: [00:24:27] Sure. Well I had Yeah. The first question so I think a lot of confidence and I kind of alluded to this in my personal experiences is it comes from the mind it comes from it comes from how you think about the world. So are there any kind of things someone can do from a mental perspective. You know exercises for the brain, gymnastics for the mind, that you can do to just improve your self-confidence. Is there anything like that out there.

March Rogers: [00:24:52] Yeah no totally. There’s a lot and I will say I’ll give you a couple of different examples. One of them that’s been really powerful for me is some tools that I I learned through CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy. Oh yeah so traditional therapy is a lot about going in and trying to find the cause. What’s the root cause of why I feel this way. So it’s biographical. It’s historical. It’s sort of looking to the past to try and understand the present. What’s different about CBT is that it’s kind of like well we don’t really care where this came from. That’s not our purpose. Our purpose is how do we change your behavior and how you feel in the future. And so it’s oriented towards the future instead of the past. I’m not saying that that sort of understanding the root causes is not a powerful tool for self inquiry but just not what CBT is about. So I’m going to give you a couple of really simple tools that people can use that you guys can try out and then I’ll I’ll talk a little bit about how to think as a system about self-confidence and self-doubt.

March Rogers: [00:25:57] So classic one that people have self-doubt is they they talk to themselves negatively off all the time. Now this tends to happen so frequently go back to the point of those repeated 80 you know 70 80 thousand thoughts that are just habits everyday that people stop noticing it they don’t they don’t notice if someone else were suddenly to be in their head if someone was to develop telepathy someone with a lot of the self-doubt if someone else was listening they’d be like whoa what’s going on. You’re just like beating up on yourself constantly but you stop noticing it because it’s constant. So the there’s a trick to try and catch it. To actually say Oh you know to notice that you’re doing this and noticing it you will actually sort of interrupt the loop the habit loop. So there’s a one that there’s a variety of these. This one worked really well for me. And to the point where I set a reminder in my phone to go off at 5:00p.m. everyday to monitor on my drive home which is when these things would start to crop up was anything coming so I’d sort of you know turn the radar on and then if I would hear it and let’s say that I’m hearing in my head oh you know even though he seemed happy at the end of that meeting myV.P. was really pissed off with what I said or disappointed what I did. And now he is thinking about how he should manage me off the team like March in that thought is happening in my head what I would say is and I’d say this out loud literally like out loud to myself in the car. Oh the story I’m telling myself is that myV.P. thought I did a bad job and he’s plotting to fire me and even just the act of saying the story I’m telling myself does two things. One it puts the statement that I’m saying to myself into the context of a story rather than truth it sort of puts it into thing. And it also the act of saying the story I’m telling myself talking about yourself in the third person and and it gives you a sense of emotional separation. And so that’s really what you’re trying to do with this technique does matter what phrase you use is you’re trying to say just because I think this and I’m feeling this it doesn’t mean it’s true. Then the second one is giving yourself a little bit of emotional distance. It’s called separating or diffusing from your feelings because when you’re in your feelings they are that you can’t argue with them that it’s truth. It is happening. It is 100 percent what the reality. And if you can separate from it you go Oh I’m actually I’m not. It doesn’t have to be real. So that’s one tip is to stop that negative self talk as you have to watch out for it and then say out loud the story I’m telling myself is. And then when you say it again you’ll notice also how mean you’re being to yourself.

Ian Mikutel: [00:28:43] Like I didn’t realize how mean I was being I just want to interject real quick and say March. That is your first drink reference on the show in my feeling very very impressed.

Darren Austin: [00:28:56] March I would want to note something else. I think what you’re talking about is referred to at least I’ve heard it referred to as noting where you actually label a feeling or label a thought. I don’t know if you had said that that.

March Rogers: [00:29:11] No but I think that’s that’s a related technique. Yeah yeah.

Darren Austin: [00:29:14] Oh it’s not the same then it’s a little different.

March Rogers: [00:29:16] Well noting is is a more generalized skill that they for people who are or struggling to be able to identify their feelings like they’re observing their behavior but they don’t know what’s causing their behavior no either way of saying because nearly every time you say something mean to somebody you’re cranky. You do a bad job at something. If you were paying attention you would have noticed emotional states before that. That would have been signals. I know I’m in a kind of cranky mood this morning. I better be extra careful about what I said to people because my off the cuff response might be a little harsh like that sort of thing. Yeah. So. So I mean. Okay. So I gave you that one tip. The broader context of a tip like that is that thinking about self-confidence and self-doubt is actually it’s too big a term it’s too many things boil down into one phrase. And so it’s like there’s nothing that I could say to you that would say oh do this one thing and your confidence is going to turn around and you’ll become super confident because it’s actually multiple overlapping processes and symptom systems. I’m going to introduce three terms and then we’ll talk about that because all of the techniques and tips that we’re gonna talk about later relate to one of these three terms. So instead of self-confidence we’re gonna talk about self efficacy which is the belief you have that you can take action in the world that you can do things that you can accomplish things that you can succeed you’re in control.

Darren Austin: [00:30:45] Yeah right.

March Rogers: [00:30:46] That’s self efficacy. The second one is self-regulation which is the belief that you have that you are able to tolerate and respond to negative things when they come up. And so it’s about saying it’s not that I’m not going to get angry because somebody was rude to me. It’s I have enough self-regulation that I’m not going to be rude back to them. That make sense.

Darren Austin: [00:31:09] Yeah absolutely. I paused before I instinctively just react.

March Rogers: [00:31:14] That’s right. That’s right. So self self efficacy is all about acting in the world and believing you can self-regulation is all about controlling your own response to the world and believing that you can do that. And the third one is self compassion which is actually being forgiving of the fact that you’re a human being and you’re gonna make mistakes and you’re gonna do. Sometimes you’re gonna do bad things and you’re going to hurt people’s feelings are you gonna not do as great a job as you could have done. And that you’re going to forgive yourself and be able to forgive yourself and that doing bad things doesn’t make you a bad person. So those three things we’re gonna talk about them as we go through the rest of the conversation self efficacy self-regulation self compassion. OK so I had a monologue there for a while and we we got in to some of the mental things that we got more of them.

March Rogers: [00:32:05] But I kind of wanted to see what are the questions you guys got.

Darren Austin: [00:32:09] I think a lot of the things that you did you said created. I was just sort of thinking and as you were explaining some of these things and it once it causes me to want to go deeper into some of these things like. Sure. Yeah. I’m actually curious about like you mentioned some of these mental exercises and I’m I’m curious about other things that you could do like we’ve talked about in the past a little bit about a meditation practice which is a mental exercise in and of itself right. What kind of effect does meditation or meditation practice have on self-confidence.

March Rogers: [00:32:42] Yeah that’s a great question. So I mean there’s a couple of things that are that will positively impact your confidence if you’re able to do something like meditation. The first one is that it just brings mindfulness to listening to and paying attention to your inner state because in meditation in some ways is about paying attention to the contents of your consciousness. A lot of times were so there. They don’t change that often and we’re so distracted by the outside world that we can’t necessarily see what’s going on inside our own minds. Right. So meditation is great because it shuts down a lot of those distractions and that noise you’re in a quiet place you’re not checking your phone maybe you got your eyes closed and you’re paying you’re focused internally. And so one it just gives you that ability to see what’s going on inside yourself. That’s one. The second one is a lot of meditation practice are about noticing your thoughts but not holding onto them practicing letting them go and letting you know letting them just be there without you having to get hooked or attached to any one of those particular thoughts and separating yourself. Yeah that’s right yeah. And being able to do that is practice. I think of for the purposes of self-confidence and anxiety and things like that. I think of meditation as the workout room you’re lifting weights so that when you need to move a couch out in the real world you can do that without hurting yourself. So meditation both sort of innately good but it’s also about practicing these things that are harder to do when you’re in the moment and you’re distracted and you’re stressed out which is letting go of those inner inner voices of those negative ideas and judgment.

Ian Mikutel: [00:34:26] It’s really interesting that you you mentioned that because I was going to challenge you on the notion of meditation or self reflection or journaling being always a good thing because it was actually earlier when you were talking about the fact that your self-doubt or whatever would always creep in on your drive home and you had to set that reminder. And I was trying to figure out in my head why is it that it happened at that time and I was thinking well that’s the time when you stopped being so busy and you let your mind wander and you were essentially giving your mind an invitation to think about negative stuff right, or to think about that doubt.

Darren Austin: [00:34:59] You think that distraction can actually just keep you moving forward. Is that what you’re thinking Ian?

Ian Mikutel: [00:35:04] Well I thought that until I started thinking about it more deeply and I was it was the second part of what March said on the meditation which is yes you invite those thoughts to come in but then you let them go.

Ian Mikutel: [00:35:15] So it’s I think it used to be that full loop you need to close that loop because if you just sat out there journaling all day and all you did was write your worries and then shut the book or all you did was meditate and think about all the bad things but didn’t have any kind of letting it go or closure or whatever. I think it could get you worked up more than you would be if you just stayed busy and didn’t let those things come in in the first place right. It’s like it’s a concept of people that say I don’t watch the negative news or I don’t watch horror movies because why do I want to invite that stuff in to my mind at all. Like if I can just avoid it it’s better. It’s a similar concept.

Darren Austin: [00:35:48] Soft of like writing motivated to take action it’s like OK I’m not going to worry I’m not going to sit here and think about all the things that could go wrong I’m just going to jump I’m just gonna go for this thing. I guess that’s a little bit of what you’re saying. Hi.

March Rogers: [00:36:00] Have you guys heard of the default mode network in the brain.

Darren Austin: [00:36:05] Yes I have heard about this.

Darren Austin: [00:36:07] I would love to hear you explain it because I don’t know that I could.

March Rogers: [00:36:11] Sure because I think that I think that distinguishing between the activity of meditation and and letting your mind wander is it’s easy to to think that they’re there similar right because it’s about being quiet and just whatever bubbles up in your mind bubbles up in your mind. But actually I think they’re quite different. And I think what was happening to me when I got in the car and I started driving is I’m occupied enough that you know I’m I’m a little distracted I’m driving the car maybe I’ve got the radio on and what happens is my mind is occupied but not occupied enough to keep it fully engaged and what happens with your brain is it falls into this state when it’s not fully engaged called the default mode network and it’s theorized that it’s actually it’s it consumes less glucose right it’s it’s a less thought intensive way of being. And so your brain kind of wants to get into it because it’s you know trying to do that survival evolution not enough calories. Let’s be let’s constrain our are our energy use mode. But the key purpose of the default mode network is with the least amount of energy possible. Watch out for threats. So it’s it’s becomes a mode where you automatically start surveying the environment for danger. And in our modern life that’s not tigers and lions and bears. That’s you know is the bank going to foreclose on my house. It’s my boyfriend cheating on me. It’s you know am I going to get fired my boss is gonna fire me. Yeah that’s right. Yeah. And so those same thoughts can come up in meditation but in meditation you have deliberately constructed this mental space in this context that you’re in to be able to look at those thoughts rather than it being like that’s the narrative of the eye instead the eye is separate from these thoughts. And you’re watching them and go oh that’s an interesting thought. And then you let it blow away like a leaf in the wind. So I think that default mode network is the one certainly for me that end times when I’m in that in the shower. It can also be a positive thing because sometimes the default mode network will open up you know lateral thinking opportunities to you know creative ideas which is all the good ideas. In the shower. Right. But it would trigger this sort of surveying the my environment for danger and that would trigger the self-doubt problem that I had. But I think that meditation is a much more like structured intentional exercise. Yeah it looks similar on the surface.

Ian Mikutel: [00:38:41] Yeah I got I got a question March.

March Rogers: [00:38:42] Yeah.

Ian Mikutel: [00:38:42] What about nutrition and exercise. You know I’m into that and yeah I’ll talk about it on the show. Oh yeah. Do we see that there are impacts of that on self-confidence or could you just be a person lacking that competence and still eat healthy and work out a bunch and it doesn’t they’re not correlated. Right.

March Rogers: [00:38:59] I think they are. I think from the research I’ve done they’re correlated but they don’t. It’s not a one to one causation necessarily but I mean here’s three things to think about when you think about food is that you don’t. Body Confidence is a part of self-confidence and self-image. And while it’s there’s a lot of criticism valid criticism of the way that our society builds people’s expectations particular women’s expectations of what they should look like and that if you don’t look like that you’re wrong in some way. And I don’t think that. I’m certainly not advocating that people should eat so that they can conform to society’s expectations. However eating unhealthily can make you feel unhealthy and obviously can affect your weight as well which is also related to a bunch of negative health health outcomes and that’s all a part of your self-confidence. How do you feel in your body and do you feel good. You feel bad you feel tired do you feel energized you feel in. Do you have chronic pain for some reason. Do you have some sort of illness like nutrition and self-confidence are intertwined in that way I think. And then also going back to the concept of self efficacy taking control of your nutrition can really boost your confidence because it gives you a sense that you are in control of your life and in control of your body and in control of your decisions. And there’s a lot of research findings that self efficacy is a good predictor of healthy behavior and might even account for 50 percent of the variability in healthy behavior. So what are some ways you want to get you want to get yourself efficacy going first. Belief yes you can do things in the world and you can change things. And then that will unlock a bunch of healthy behaviors. Then there’s just that day to day eating the food that you eat affects your mood and a lower mood reduces your confidence. That’s like I always think of that in nutrition the difference between the weather and the climate. So the climate is like what are you eating everyday for years. And that’s going to affect things like you know your metabolic health your weight your long term mental health. But then there’s also the like what did you eat this morning and how did that affect your day. Right so it’s the weather versus climate you know daily nutrition versus yearly nutrition. There are if you there are a few things that you could you could snack on if you want. Ian If you’re looking looking to use food as a booster of your of your confidence here’s a couple foods rich in vitamin D like like eggs oily fish yogurt things like that. So Vitamin D is thought to increase levels of serotonin in the brain which is sort of a happy healthy and calming hormone neurotransmitter so foods rich in Vitamin B which things like spinach broccoli meats dairy and eggs are all great sources of.

Ian Mikutel: [00:41:47] I had a lot of that last night.

Darren Austin: [00:41:50] That’s right a lot of yeah.

March Rogers: [00:41:52] So what’s been noted that low levels of vitamin B have been associated with people who have depression are suffering from depression. So getting those natural food sources of vitamin B is really good for you. And then one one more which is there’s a whole handful of these foods rich and selenium which is a mineral that’s actually a metal that that often many of us are deficient in. And studies have shown a link between low low selenium levels and poor mood. So things like Lean meat whole grains Brazil nuts oats beans seafood other nuts and seeds they all have a lot of selenium in them. And so eating that can help boost your mood. You know one thing that people will often do to boost their mood in day to day is they’ll have a like a sugar hit and they’re like oh I’ll eat that chocolate bar and then they’ll give me energy and I’ll go. And that’s actually true. Like it actually does boost your blood sugar and elevated levels of blood sugar do give you a trigger to release things like serotonin and dopamine. So it does. It does actually make you feel good. The challenge is is that sugar has this sort of you’re going to go up and what goes up must come down and it’s sort of a roller coaster in terms of the hormones and the metabolism in your body. And so oftentimes afterwards it’s going to make you feel pretty bad right. That the drop in your blood sugar levels is going to disrupt your mood you’ll feel drawn out and lethargic. So if you’re going to try and get that sugar try to get that sugar from a complex carbohydrate source. So you know nuts and seeds and whole grain breads rather than refined sugars which just have so many downsides that the quick boost is not worth it. I used to when I was younger I used to hit the 2:00p.m. munchies and my brain turned to mush and I would have to think thinking back now it’s kind of appalling to me. But I would have a large cup of coffee and a Snickers bar.

Ian Mikutel: [00:43:44] Oh my gosh.

March Rogers: [00:43:44] I would just like mash all that like it really does. I would feel amazing like Superman for 20 minutes yeah. And then I would feel awful for two hours and I I don’t know why I didn’t notice the pattern but they were that was me.

Darren Austin: [00:44:00] Well you needed another cup of coffee and a Snickers.

March Rogers: [00:44:02] That’s right. The trick is the one and another one and another one. Yeah.

March Rogers: [00:44:08] One thing by the way that the people you know the Dutch courage thing of people using alcohol to boost their confidence yet again that’s actually seen that play out. It’s actually true with the challenge with that is it’s super easy to go too far and not only alcohol is kind of a toxin small amount of alcohol is fine like the one glass that unlocks someone who’s shy at a party and now they feel happy and more social and you know they’re kind of like alcohol a social lubricant is true like it it genuinely is true and you could use it that way if you know and are careful about using it in a controlled way. The problem is is that the number one thing you want to do when you have a drink is have another drink like that’s the thing that it unlocks. And and it’s rapidly reducing your judgment. And so your ability to go Oh I’ve had enough. It gets diminished every time you have more alcohol. You’ve got to be very careful about that.

Darren Austin: [00:45:02] This plays itself out when you’re playing pool billiards. Right. Like you have you know the one beer like you’re playing terribly then you have the one beer. Then it’s like you’re on and after that second or third beer you’re right back to worse than you started. Right.

March Rogers: [00:45:17] I mean it’s funny you get your blow. You guys are both golfers right and there’s this thing called the yips in golf. Oh yeah and when can you one of you guys give like a super quick definition of the yips yet.

Darren Austin: [00:45:27] I don’t think I know about the yips.

Ian Mikutel: [00:45:29] The yips are a psychological blocker that happens to golfers. So Tiger Woods actually had it in 2014 15 with his short game so he literally could not make a short chip to save his life. And typically you get putting yips so yips happened when you have to make small very small motor skill things so very fine motor patterns and those motor patterns literally get blocked by just things in your in your mind that are psychological blockers. And so typically happens with somebody putting a ball it’s a very fine line you’re dealing with tenths of a tenth of an eighth of an inch. Little fractions off you can mess it up little power differences. And so people will get the putting chips and literally like you can bend Tiger Woods and he got the yips and you can usually never recover from them. Most people cannot.

Darren Austin: [00:46:17] And so it will just ruin this is like a medical condition. This isn’t just like a slang term.

Ian Mikutel: [00:46:21] It’s a slang I don’t know it’s slang term but it’s definitely it’s like a lot like the cause is psychological. And so the yips I think could be probably more broadly applied to other parts. Is that why you’re kind of getting up yet.

March Rogers: [00:46:33] Yeah and I mean I mean the the thing about the yips which is sort of like this really extreme example so it can teach us something by being so extreme is somebody gets this negative feedback loop of thinking they can’t do something. And at the at they’re like pro level of a sport and especially a sport where small motor control and hand y coordination are so crucial you’re your mood and the what you’re thinking can directly affect your nervous system. And that’s an example of that. So what I’ve heard is what people used to do and I don’t think this is what Tiger Woods did. With professional golfers used to do this they’d have a small hip flask of whiskey or vodka on them and if they felt like they were starting to get the yips they would take a quick swig to try and likes quote unquote steady their nerves. And and I have no idea whether I don’t think that’s been studied whether alcohol actually cures the EPS but it is an example of people been using alcohol as as a confidence booster for a long time and that the trick is I would say if you’re going to use alcohol as a confidence booster use it to make yourself feel a little bit more chatty like comfortable talking to people but don’t use it to overcome like a fear of of like approaching strangers in a bar or something because you go horribly wrong. I mean it does. I mean I doubt anyone who’s ever been in a bar has witnessed this going wrong so don’t be that person and any of the people that you are trying to approach to talk to are not going to welcome the drunk person who is you know overconfident juice to alcohol but you know can’t stand up straight. So I would not advice alcohol as a tool.

Ian Mikutel: [00:48:16] I mean it’s a crutch.

Ian Mikutel: [00:48:17] Right. Like it’s a band. Yeah. You don’t want to rely on it and there’s too many know risks for addiction that could be bad too. Exactly. If you think that if you’re giving you something so powerful that you will just keep doing it.

Darren Austin: [00:48:30] Hey I would take this in a different direction because there was a question that I had about confidence. I think a lot about I don’t know I just think about a lot of macroeconomic things that change and I was thinking about how our society is very different today than it was say a hundred years ago. And obviously we you know people used to live on family farms around their family. And as we’ve talked in the past like all three of us have moved away from where our farm where we grew up and where our families reside. I’m curious about how self one’s self-confidence changes when you’re out of your support network. In other words you know is there a change. Is there a general trend or a change in overall self-confidence amongst society because people tend to move away from families or or congregate in urban centers. Is there anything like that that affects self-confidence seems like it would. Right yeah.

March Rogers: [00:49:26] So there is a fair amount of research into the social underpinnings of self-confidence how people respond to you and how they support you. I will say that the particular example depends a little bit on how functional and healthy your family environment was very good because yeah because you’re yourself. For some people their self-confidence goes up after they get away depending on affluence. But yeah if you if you’re lucky enough to have parents who encourage you and love you and give you a safe space to be in that leaving that area can be a threat like a threatening sense to to your confidence you know. And this is everything from people who go to college and they’re on their own for the first time or a short term threat and then a long term benefit.

Darren Austin: [00:50:08] Right. Like I remember some things that I did that I was afraid of when I was younger like it was just something I knew that I wasn’t sure about. And after I did it I looked back and was like wow that was right. And then from then on I was like Oh of course I can do this new thing I did that other thing and I thought I was worried about it.

March Rogers: [00:50:24] So yeah well I think I mean these are super simple examples but some of the most powerful things my mother did for me is parenting is that when I was 15 she taught me how to cook. And also at 15 that’s when I became responsible for for my own laundry. And then once a week it became my job to plan the meals and and cook the dinner that nice. And because she was giving me skills that are these are very small skills self are the same right back efficacy. Totally. Yeah yeah totally. And so I was lucky enough to learn self efficacy pretty young in my life. Self-regulation took a lot longer and self compassion. I’m still working on it. But I was I was lucky enough to get some of that and I do think that when you move away from your network or you know you know they they say that you are the product of the five people you spend the most time with. And I think while that’s the sort of a saying there’s probably some truth to that and certainly one of the ways to get healthier in general but also confidence is to surround yourself with people who who have the trait that you want because you will it will become muddled and it in your mind will become the norm and what’s expected. And so you know if you want to learn to surf hang out with surfers if you want to gain confidence hang out with people who have self-confidence but then you have to distinguish between to your point earlier and you have to distinguish between self-confidence and arrogance or overconfidence. You kind of want. You want to like the more quiet humble people who are just seem very centered and grounded in themselves. That’s what you get for rather than the you know hey let me tell you everything that’s amazing about me and have you seen my three gold watches you know. Right.

Darren Austin: [00:52:05] You know it’s really funny when I think of I am as you said that march I was thinking about a gentleman that I worked with who was actually a president of one of the companies I work for and when I was working there he was he and I were peers. He’s the most calm centered confident individual I’ve ever met and an absolute joy to work with and work for. And I’ve always just marveled at that ability that he has to have a very general measured composure in his leadership style in the way his collaborative style is just so incredibly effective because of that sort of centered ness. It’s it’s phenomenal it’s something I’ve always aspired to develop and it’s actually good to know that you can you can learn this stuff right. You can develop us.

March Rogers: [00:53:01] And speaking of that how about we end with I’m going to bust one self-confidence myth and then I’ll give you three quick practical tips to go practice.

Ian Mikutel: [00:53:10] Like I very any question before we jump in. Yeah yeah sure.

Ian Mikutel: [00:53:13] I don’t know if you research this so we may want to just break it out into another show. So just just say so. If this is the case but have you looked into any of the supplementation slash prescription drug aspects around this. So I know Kevin Rose did an interesting podcast episode we put in the show notes with sir. I can never pronounce his last name. March correct me because I know I tried did. Oh yeah. Bye bye. Bye Grey. Yes. Thank you. And he talked a ton about things like metformin or modafinil and in some of the I have so yes I know that I’ve taken some of these and had really really profound effects with low risk side effects. If you’re doing it correctly and working with a doctor did you look at any of this?

March Rogers: [00:53:55] I did not look at at supplements and things like neuro tropics relate to this topic and I do think that it’s it’s worth its own deep dive. We did that we did that one episode on one year. Oh yeah. I think I think that we could come back and say OK what is the state of the art in terms of supplementation that you could take to change your mental state. Yeah I’d be totally.

Ian Mikutel: [00:54:19] There’s also lithium in there which we talked a little bit about in the past.

Darren Austin: [00:54:23] Yeah lithium we could at least get an experiment on that. Did we report back on your experiment with that which she took a drink in the water with the lithium in it it’s still going my fall you’re still going.

Ian Mikutel: [00:54:32] Yeah it’s right. So we can report back but I think what we could do is at least in this episode we’ll put some links in the show notes to maybe some of our previous episodes where we talked about qualia or lithium or some these other things. I think those are the more supplementary side and then there’s a prescription drug side which is that these supplements. So I just I think would be interesting to talk about at some point but again probably warrants a little more research and preparation so yeah.

March Rogers: [00:54:58] Yeah absolutely. OK. So you’re right. Give us a minute. Oh yes ma’am.

March Rogers: [00:55:04] I want to bust the myth so a few years ago there was a TED talk that I saw about power posing. Have you guys did you guys hear about this. I think I know about this just this year. I swear to you you’re on the stage. Yeah right. The Wonder Woman you know that sort of like hands on your hips shoulder apart you know head up chin back. It’s a great we love that sort of. It is. It is. So it was this hypothesis that was based on a 2010 paper by Dana Carney and Amy Cuddy and Andy Yep and they it really seemed to have some interesting potential results in their study like it had positive hormonal and behavior changes. And so she did this TED talk sort of telling about people hey if you do this just before you have to do something scary it will boost your confidence and you’ll do great. And sadly because that would be really great if it was true sadly that they’ve attempted to replicate this that the findings into 2017 they there was 11 studies that we’re trying to replicate this effect and none of them found that they all they all had negative results. So yes. So if you saw that TED talk and you were inspired by it the message is a great message but the method is not a great method. Power poses only for fun not for profit. OK 3 three for the stage. OK number one and this is just you know how do you how do you deal with setbacks. Right because it’s one thing to convince yourself that everything’s gonna be great and to and to cut off the negative self talk and separate yourself from those feelings but sometimes stuff just doesn’t go your way. And how do you deal with that. So there’s a couple places here. One of them and I would fall into this all the time. This is a total March signature which is the forever never trap. So you get into this black and white thinking right. Yes. Oh this is never going to work. Oh this is gonna be terrible forever right. And you got to remember that setbacks are temporary. Right nothing lasts forever and it’s worse. Sometimes you need to use another person to do this or just reminding yourself maybe remembering you know how many times did things go as badly as you thought they were going to go. How many times things go as well as there you’re gonna go like it’s gonna be swings and roundabouts in life. And try not to get caught in the forever never trap. Second one is practice so you’d be amazed the number of things where you don’t have confidence in it and it’s just because you haven’t actually done it enough times you haven’t practiced it because practicing a skill that’s a public speaking. Not only are you going to improve at it but it makes it easier to perform in stressful situations because you’re growing your confidence in the most practical way possible. And so that’s my second suggestion is if you have a particular thing.

Darren Austin: [00:57:54] And also recognize that you have to practice it like right now.

Darren Austin: [00:57:59] Yeah that would be great. I don’t like the bicycle for a little while. That’s right. And then I’m gonna get up and then it’s gonna be great.

March Rogers: [00:58:06] Fascinating research that confidence developed in one form of practice is actually transferable to other domains as well. So if you’re struggling with you know public speaking maybe Bill practice in like rock climbing because as you gain because again it goes back to that sense of self efficacy.

Ian Mikutel: [00:58:23] This was this was exactly what I was referring to in the beginning of the show with my personal experience because yeah I had that confidence from a young age from the kind of mental side of things. And then I tried to transfer it when I was trying to be more athletic. Right. And so I totally subscribe to that. It’s totally true.

Darren Austin: [00:58:40] Well you know what else it does is it talks. That speaks to playing to your strengths. You know they saw a lot of people will talk about if you really want to maximize your impact or something you know some people I’ve been caught in this is like I focus on my weaknesses and how to make those better. And then the other school of thought is don’t worry about that. Focus on your strengths and play to your strengths in what you just said what you guys just talked about there. It reinforces that exactly like if you’re playing to your strengths you’re constantly doing something that you’re good at and it’s going to reinforce your confidence so when you try something else that you may be a little less competent in your bringing that confidence over from something from other experiences.

March Rogers: [00:59:19] Yeah okay. Last one I’m going to say this this is celebrate the small wins. So anything that’s worth doing is going to take time to do and withholding congratulations or withholding celebration till the very end turns out not to be as useful as celebrating along the way. So don’t withhold that sort of self-congratulation as you’re doing it on the journey it’s going to make it easier to keep going and up here you’re your momentum. We know from habit forming research that the best way to form a habit is to do something small and then celebrate and feel great about the fact that you did it even once and then celebrate it it will make you want to do it again and again and again. So not only can you build positive habits this way but you can also just say you know this is long and it’s hard and you know if you’re going to climb a mountain there’s going to be many moments when you’re going to doubt yourself. Celebrate you know turnaround admire the view. Understand you know how much you’ve already done and how far you’ve come. And then take the next step. You. Person That’s

Ian Mikutel: [01:09:11] I’ve got to give a quick shout out to Darren on that one. So when I started working for Darren on the one note team we had weekly team meetings and Darren instituted this thing where at the beginning of every meeting he would go around the room. He would say Okay everybody just if you had a quick win or a small win this past week like Cher I got that. And that was the first time I’ve had any manager do that in my career. Microsoft on a consistent basis like that.

Ian Mikutel: [01:09:32] It was so cool because it got people in the rhythm of like thinking that way and and I think it’s a self. You know it’s a thing that everyone could take a bit of write like try to institute it in your in your week using some method like. I think that planners that we’ve talked about in previous episodes actually encourage this journaling encourages it whatever way you want to do it but that that even idea of saying let me reflect for a second and find some winds will naturally build up confidence in you. Right. Like it’s it’s such a nice way to go about it organically. You ought to feel like it’s moist thanks.

Darren Austin: [01:10:00] And I forgot but I forgot about that. Yeah. Hey I want to throw one more tip out that had just come to mind that I think is maybe useful for the audience and that is a compliment. You know a lot of times somebody will come to an inn and make a car and give us a column about something we do and are our default knee jerk reaction is to sort of discount it. Oh yeah. Well it wasn’t really all that much I didn’t really do anything. You know the one tip I would get is learn how to say thank you. When say when you get a compliment and this is something that I’ve it’s been difficult for me and I see a lot of other people do it it’s difficult for anybody but be conscious of the fact that you know what you do a great job on a lot of things and when somebody recognizes it just all the right approaches like thank you like that’s really cool you know and and that’s a tip I would leave with folks. I’m sad about it a long way to rebuilding. You know I think we all are.

Ian Mikutel: [01:10:43] Well you know it’s fine arts sports analogy again but it’s so apropos is when we play golf you’re walking around with you sometimes strangers or friends for like four hours right. You hit so many shots and it’s a nice courtesy thing in golf. If if you hit a shot you’re playing with people. They’ll they’ll say like great shot or whatever and yeah I’m so bad at recognizing that. I was watching a training video over the summer with a coach and he was saying if somebody takes a second to acknowledge and they barely even know you. That’s such a nice gesture no one like for you to just shrug it off is actually like a little bit rude. And no I do it for your self confidence like take that five seconds and go man. They just recognize it. That was a really good shot. And and let that sink in because in sports especially I see this in the workplace too. It’s so easy to go from thing to thing. And when you do have a success to not let it actually increase your competence because you’re so focused on the next thing and you don’t take a second to let it sink in. Right.

Darren Austin: [01:11:34] I love it. I think you’re exactly right it shows up on the golf course all the time.

March Rogers: [01:11:37] All right. Well hopefully that was useful for you guys and useful for our listeners. I think we’re we’re all on this journey. No one is immune to to self-doubt. I’m sure the topic will come up again but hopefully people learned a few things. I know I did.

Darren Austin: [01:11:49] If they seem like they are immune to self-doubt they’re really not.

Ian Mikutel: [01:11:52] That’s amazing. All right let’s wrap this episode on that wonderful note.

Ian Mikutel: [01:11:55] Thanks again to our listener who wrote in and inspired this episode if you Yeah. Thanks very you want to hear about on the show. Right into us. We’ve actually been getting a little bit more listener mails e-mails lately which is super encouraging. We love to hear from you. Criticism praise ideas suggestions whatever it is it our way. We’ll take it all hi at BetterShow.io is the e-mail address. You can also reach us to reach out to us on all the socials march where can you find us on all those places.

March Rogers: [01:12:19] Yes you can find at the better show on Facebook Instagram and Twitter and we would love to hear from you Darren.

Darren Austin: [01:12:26] What is the number one thing somebody can do to help out the show a friend if you like what we’re talking about here if you’re getting some value out of if you found one or two tips today or in a previous episode let somebody else know about the better show and have them tune in to we’d love to get the word of mouth going.

Darren Austin: [01:12:40] And if after you’ve done that and if you feel still compelled to help. We’d love to get a five star review and I tunes that also helps other people find us.

Ian Mikutel: [01:12:47] Yeah. All right. The better show I am Ian Mikutel I’m Darren Austin and I’m March Rogers. We will see you next episode. Thanks for listening.

Ian Mikutel: [01:12:53] Thanks again for listening to The Better Show. Three quick notes before we go.

Ian Mikutel: [01:12:56] Number one we really hope what you heard today can help you on your journey to getting better. If it did it mean the world to us if you could head on over to. Tunes or wherever you found the show and leave a review. This is one of the best ways to help grow the show and ultimately the community that we’re trying to build together. Number two. Links to anything you heard in today’s episode. Just head on over toBetterShow.io while you’re there sign up for our better show newsletter where each week we send a summary of the latest tips tricks and hacks and cool articles that we’ve come across an artery to getting better. And finally number three join the conversation and let us know how you are getting better. On Facebook Instagram and Twitter just search the better show. We’d love to hear from you. Thanks again for listening and we’ll see you next episode. You.

Ian Mikutel: [01:13:36] Don’t need I need like a macro that when you want Skype it just starts recording audacity at the exact moment. Right.

March Rogers: [01:13:42] Oh right. You never miss a random moment.

Ian Mikutel: [01:13:44] I was just ranting I hate yellow highlighters in like emails and stuff like I always change it. Specific they go out of my way to change the default every single time to blue or pink or anything.

March Rogers: [01:13:55] Oh wow that yellow. Yeah it’s just I have them.

March Rogers: [01:13:57] My pet peeve in email is people using lots of different fonts. Oh my God. This just makes it very hard to read. I mean obviously there’s the there’s the crimes against humanity that are comic sans and papyrus but even just like five or six different fonts and colors and sizes it’s just all over the place and you’re like Yeah.

Ian Mikutel: [01:14:13] And it’s you know I wonder if I wonder if there’s any research that’s been done on their perception of emails based on those types of thing.

Darren Austin: [01:14:19] Oh yeah.

Ian Mikutel: [01:14:20] Later we’re going to talk about better confidence today.

Ian Mikutel: [01:14:22] And I’m just thinking like I wonder if I if you send your e-mails in a certain font do you project more confidence or less confidence or if you use certain color or highlighters or I think the auto signature is created a problem like because you create an auto signature and it might be in a different font than is the standard e-mail like you know. So you get then you get that weird thing or if you cut and paste something in you don’t strip the formatting. Actually we should do an episode on better e-mail.

Ian Mikutel: [01:14:47] Here’s the thing. What’s the worst e-mail signature you guys have ever seen. You all have when everyone has one.

Ian Mikutel: [01:14:53] It’s some archaic quote it’s some rambling.

Darren Austin: [01:14:55] Mine are some crazy long ones the ones that are like an entire email in and of themselves with like different colors and find a link to a video.

March Rogers: [01:15:04] I mean man my my least favorite ones are the ones you get from like doctors offices and lawyers where it’s like you know novel of disclaimer text that makes it in part you’re like looking for the one line message where they said Sure that’s fine. Thanks. And then there’s like you know nine pages of legal boilerplate. Yes.

Darren Austin: [01:15:21] Drive me crazy. It’s funny. It’s true like I have to compliment an attorney I was having an e-mail exchange with recently where they they just put at the top privileged in that boom and then right into the end I thought Okay that’s better. I know you got to do that. But it’s one word. And I was like Great. Yeah this is fantastic.

Ian Mikutel: [01:15:37] Here’s here’s a legit question. Are you guys on Team. I’m on mobile forgive typos or are you not on that team.

Darren Austin: [01:15:43] You mean when people say oh excuse the typos. Yeah mobile device. Don’t know.

March Rogers: [01:15:48] I mean I don’t like look at that signature and go oh no that’s terrible. But I do think like I I I don’t think that it promotes good best practice. Yeah. In some ways like the shorter the message the more important it is to be clear about what you’re saying right now. It’s a very it’s very easy very easy to typo the exact opposite of what you meant. Yeah. Yeah. So I don’t I mean I think it encourages people to dash off emails that just clog up other people’s inboxes and might actually be either hard to read or not answer the question properly. So I’m a I’m a like take the extra ten seconds and read what you wrote.

Darren Austin: [01:16:21] Darren least I try to be. I think you know I had this in your signature ever yourself. No no no I never have but I’ve seen other people do it and I didn’t take offense to it. But I’ve seen it so much now that it is just part of what I expect. Right. Like I get it. I don’t trust in my signature. I think Marty has it may be in her signature or maybe it came as the default thing and one of the one of the things she does like in her email or something.

Ian Mikutel: [01:16:43] my other pet peeve is the defaults that people put in from the app side of things. They put like sent from this app now. That’s so right. So I imagine if we had that in one note when we worked on one night like every page you made just said I created by one note like that so we didn’t have any money.

Darren Austin: [01:16:57] The app itself just charity using it. I just changed phones and saw it. You know you get all the apps and you get them all set up and everything. And I banged out a quick e-mail after setting up this phone and then I sent it and realized that it had put. You know my email app I’m not going to name names my email app put their default. You know sent from blah blah blah on Android and I was like oh man now I got to go in and change it. And I was so annoyed by that. I totally agree. But you know what started that you know where that came. No no not the emerging story Hotmail before Hotmail was purchased by Microsoft Hotmail was the first one to put sent by Hotmail and the email signature. And that created a viral effect for that e-mail program. And that’s what made Hotmail so incredibly dominant. And so everybody realized they did a case study and really realized all these other things were like Oh my God we got to do that. So they did it all well from now on that’s been the standard so interesting.

March Rogers: [01:17:50] Well I know I will tolerate lots of things from people in email as long as they don’t use all caps. But if you use all caps you’re done.

Darren Austin: [01:17:57] Boy there’s a whole sidebar in presidential tweets just from that.

Ian Mikutel: [01:18:00] Hey you know what I’ve done. I am a little guilty of that. I use all caps occasionally on mobile because it’s easier to double tap into all caps to basically fake a bold instead of actually building something.

Ian Mikutel: [01:18:11] Oh really. No. No. Never. That’s one word. OK. But no. OK. Now I just really I think I would even interpret it as shouting like a text.

Darren Austin: [01:18:17] But one word is. Yeah. I’m not going to I’m not going to fault you for one word because you get what you gonna do with bold on a mobile device meaning you don’t have to highlight and pull it out of them. It’s like what. Right. Right. I’m with you on that.

Ian Mikutel: [01:18:27] Two other last ones that I can’t stand the people that used to put. I saw one of these like a couple weeks ago and it’s like really really it’s it’s like almost 20 19. They put at the bottom and their signature please consider the environment before printing this email.

Darren Austin: [01:18:39] Oh man. Oh my God. Really. Really. Consider the environment when you sending this through how many data centers churning out. I mean come on. Yes.

Ian Mikutel: [01:18:47] Thank you. First of all like how many people even print e-mails anymore. I mean like this so often enough I do. I’m not a lawyer Dory.

Darren Austin: [01:18:54] I have a funny story on that. This is a long time ago is was but this is still like 2000 right. There was a very senior executive at a company I worked actually had to say it. It’s at AOL. And this is a company that might have invented e-mail or MIT popularized it right. This guy doesn’t even use e-mail. He had his admin print out all of his emails put them on the and a physical inbox on his desk and he marked them up and wrote them and then and then she would type them back to respond. That’s how he handled email and I was like I can’t believe this guy’s getting paid this kind of money for working at an email company and he doesn’t know how to use email as crazy. I mean what does he do for you. By all I mean yeah I send that through interoffice mail a Darren do you think that the assistant had to do all the noises of AOL mail like you guys go and literally say it every. Yeah right. That would have been great.

March Rogers: [01:19:42] But what I want to know is is how often did his assistant just say screw it I’m going to I’m going to write whatever I wanted this email changed his message I would have been awesome OK so printing. Yes. Who prints e-mail any these days. Yeah. I don’t have one printer. Never mind multiple printers. That would necessitate a printer rack.

Darren Austin: [01:20:00] I’ve been trying to get away from a printer for a long time. There’s always just like four times a year where we need it.

March Rogers: [01:20:05] I since they have started supporting online signatures and signatures inside and form filling inside PDA. And you can even fill forms that weren’t designed to before filled online. That was sort of the end of the printer for me. Yeah I just stuck with the other. Yeah go ahead. What’s the other. What’s the other problem with. With please consider before you print this e-mail though.

Ian Mikutel: [01:20:23] The what. Yeah. Well there’s two that one is this. I understand it’s like required it’s the other people that do like legally stuff like you know any disclaimer of any sort. Right. Some of them are warranted. If there is actually a lawyer but a lot of people put them and they’re not like I think my own dad’s signature from work used to have something like that. And you would e-mail me a personal thing from his work account if you like what’s going on. The other one though. This is hilarious so I pulled up a Gizmodo article the eleven most obnoxious e-mail signatures and this one I wouldn’t have thought of. But the way they wrote this is so so perfect the faux pas is saying cheers as your signature is only OK if you’re from the UK.

Darren Austin: [01:20:55] Oh maybe go on to empathize.

Darren Austin: [01:20:57] I try to like you know I say cheers all the time when I’m talking to my folks over in theU.K. right. Here’s what they say.

Ian Mikutel: [01:21:04] Here’s what they say is the worst if from anyone who isn’t somewhere in the UK unless you’re physically presence and you have drinks in your hands Knock that crap off you pretentious.

March Rogers: [01:21:13] Wow. For what. I shall have it as an auto signature but that is that is how I sign off 99 percent of my emails. Wow. It is you know it’s not an outlier. I mean it. I mean it every time I type it out CAGR comma enterM.A. RC hates period. You actually have to have it right every time you hit the send button. I do. I do. I actually hit the send button with the bottom and I never realized.

Darren Austin: [01:21:34] So saying cheers is a non Brit. It’s sort of like suburban white boy trying to talk like hip hop. Right. That’s just what’s going on there is a complete mismatch culturally is that the deal. I think so.

Ian Mikutel: [01:21:45] I guess I think it’s equivalent to throwing in the word mate.

Ian Mikutel: [01:21:48] Just say it all the time like well all the times I go for it. But like if you’re talking to your buddy down in Australia may come on.

Ian Mikutel: [01:21:55] Yeah well I don’t know if I want to show people that you say every time at the end of their emails. Right. Like they adopt it as their segue. So let me ask this.

Darren Austin: [01:22:02] When I go to France why is why. Why is it courteous for me to speak try attempt to speak in French. Why wouldn’t I just get up and go here.

Ian Mikutel: [01:22:09] You know what I am. When you’re in France that’s OK. So when I’m sending cheers globally from the United States I see. Here’s here’s the deal. If you’re listening to this and you use any interesting signatures please let us know. And if you are in the UK and use cheers tell us if it’s OK for people outside to do the same.

March Rogers: [01:22:25] I think I’m going to I think I’m going to start signing off my email….adieu.

Ian Mikutel: [01:22:28] And we work as some French folks. So just go ahead and see what you see when you get back. All right.

March Rogers: [01:22:32] Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Adieu.

Better Confidence

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Written by Ian Mikutel