Exclusive: A Q&A with Patrick McHale
The creator of ‘Over the Garden Wall’ talks Halloween, the lessons he learned from ‘Adventure Time,’ and more.
’Tis the season of ghosts, ghouls, and terrifying near-death experiences culminating in symbolism-laden battles with the metaphorical manifestation of death in a world as grim as Grimm. That’s right, folks—it’s Over the Garden Wall season! Just in time for Halloween, creator Patrick McHale joined The Dot and Line to discuss little-known snippets of show lore, what he learned working on his good friend Pendleton Ward’s Adventure Time, and, of course, what you should watch this All Hallows’ Eve.
What was the single biggest lesson you learned from Flapjack and Adventure Time that you applied in Over the Garden Wall?
Hmm. Well, the first thing that comes to mind is pacing and clarity. When I did my first storyboards on Flapjack, I was very precious about everything. I was afraid to cut jokes because I wanted it to be funny. But if you don’t keep the story moving, and you don’t keep the motivations clear, even funny jokes won’t play funny. I tend to enjoy just spending time with the characters and having them talk to each other and discover things in their environment… so I have to edit myself a lot for the audience’s sake.
The voice talent on Over the Garden Wall is through the roof. Is there anyone you really wanted to get who, for whatever reason, didn’t work out? And can you point to why you thought they were awesome?
Yeah, pretty much everybody we got was on my wish list! But I also have a long list of people who would have been amazing to involve if we could have. Tom Waits is probably the most obvious one; his music was such an inspiration, it would have been great to get him for something. We really wanted to get Dolly Parton but she was busy! Same thing with Cyndi Lauper! I would have loved to get Pete Seeger, but I couldn’t find the right role to even reach out to him. We asked Shirley Temple Black to do a voice, but she declined (which is certainly understandable considering she’d basically declined every role offered to her for many decades). There was a character I wanted Willis Earl Beal to play, but unfortunately the character was cut. I should have asked Diana Serra Cary (Baby Peggy) to do a voice but didn’t think of it until it was too late. Umm… I guess I could just go on and on!
Which character was the hardest to conceptualize on Over the Garden Wall, and why?
Probably the Beast. He went through a LOT of variations before we settled on his final look and character. Early on, he was just the devil himself, and then he was actually the Woodsman, and then a bunch of different types of creatures… it kept changing and changing.
Adelaide was really hard too. She was mostly just a red herring, so I didn’t think to plan her backstory too much. So when we got to the episode where she was supposed to be revealed, it was like hitting a wall. What was she supposed to look like? Sound like? We had to scramble to figure it out. Now, at this point, I have a whole secret backstory for her and Auntie Whispers and everything… but that’ll probably stay a secret forever!
Beatrice and Greg were probably the easiest characters to conceptualize. Their characters were clear right out of the gate.
There is a lot of symbolism packed in Over the Garden Wall. What’s one symbolic scene, character, or moment in the show that you haven’t seen many fans pick up on?
Hmm… I don’t know. I feel like there’s a lot. It’s it’s hard to even think about it.
I think some people picked up on it, but Adelaide has the mark of a black widow on the back of her shawl, and she uses her knitting like a web. At one point, we gave her a bunch of arms like a spider too, but it seemed too distracting and confusing for the story.
Conversely, what’s a symbol fans have picked up on in your work that you didn’t intend, but maybe wish you had?
Almost everything that fans have picked up on was something that we considered while making the show. We considered a LOT of things, and layered in a lot of things. We often purposefully kept things vague, because I wanted people to be able to interpret things in more than one way. Some theories have been pushed further than we originally intended, but I think most of the core concepts were things we at least thought about if not consciously included.
Who is one of your favorite animators who has never run a show on a major network? Can you tell us a bit about their work?
Somvilay Xayaphone is a storyboard artist on Adventure Time who I went to school with. He was incredibly influential to me, and to Pen Ward, and to many of my peers. He and his work are hard to describe… only a glimmer of his brilliance comes through in his AT storyboards. But if I could magically give anyone a show, it would probably be him.
Did you have any historical or visual references you used to influence the color palette or visual aesthetic of Over the Garden Wall?
Too many to name, but one of the first and strongest inspirations was old trade cards and postcards, or chromolithographs. Also just the feeling of autumn in New England (mixed with general Americana).
What made you turn to Jack Jones and Chris Isaak, two figures relatively out of the limelight nowadays, for vocal work on the show’s soundtrack? (Which, as we’ve noted before, is stellar.) Did Isaak’s role in Twin Peaks — another series very interested in the unknown and the darkness lurking behind the human condition — play any role in that?
Linda Lamontagne was my casting director, and she is incredible. When I was making the pilot, we got all sorts of auditions for John Crops, one of which was Chris Isaak’s. I loved his audition a lot; his voice sounded so soothing. But it also reminded me of Sterling Holloway in a way, where the soothing quality could also be used for something a little creepy—Holloway played Winnie the Pooh, but also the Cheshire Cat. So when the series got picked up, I included the character Enoch just for him. And then we wrote a song for the episode because… it’s Chris Isaak.
Jack Jones was just someone whose music I always admired, and when I needed a crooner, he was pretty much the first person I thought of. I really didn’t expect he would be interested, but he was! I wish I had him do more voices—he’s a really great (and funny) voice actor. Maybe on another project.
Elijah Wood has said of Over the Garden Wall, “If this show were played on a record, it would be played on a phonograph.” Do you want to return to that feeling on your next project, or do you hope to evoke a different mood?
There are lots of projects I’d love to do eventually, but the project I’m currently developing IS in a similar vein to OtGW — though hopefully it’ll have some different moods too. I do like old stuff.
Can you name a few artistic works you hope fans of your shows will be turned onto that they may not have been before?
Check out the work of Yuriy Norshteyn—he’s a major influence. Support his work if you can; don’t just watch the low quality versions on YouTube. There was a lot of discussion about F. W. Murnau while making OtGW, so check out his films; Sunrise is one of my favorites.
And definitely check out some of the musicians who worked on the show: The Blasting Company, Janet Klein, Frank Fairfield, Jerron “Blind Boy” Paxton, C.W. Stoneking, Jack Jones, Chris Isaak. Hopefully I’m not forgetting anybody.
What might a companion piece to Over the Garden Wall look like?
You’ll have to wait and find out! But it probably would not be autumn-themed.
Over the Garden Wall walks a fine line between harsh Germanic fairy tales and wistful, sepia-toned Americana — with plenty of other influences in the mix. How did you balance one with the other and still keep the show’s sense of humor so present?
It was supposed to be a comedy, but I’m not really interested in most comedies. So I tried to just establish funny characters with a nice character dynamic and plop them into a story that was more up my alley. But I think also… I just worry about the audience getting bored. I know that my tastes in film are not for everyone, especially not kids—I like silent films and period dramas and stuff—but Pride and Prejudice has lots of funny moments. It’s all in how you set up the characters, and how they interact with each other throughout. I guess? I don’t know. I’m still trying to find the balance.
Anyway… I’m not 100% in love with all of the writing in OtGW—it takes all my strength to not rip apart every aspect of the series when I answer interview questions. It sometimes got too jokey for my tastes, but overall I’m really glad most people were able to enjoy the jokiness while still feeling the deeper stuff.
What are some of your favorite cartoon Halloween specials?
The first one that comes to mind is the Garfield one. I remember being sort of scared of Binky the Clown, and then that terrifying old man in the chair. Hmm. I’m not sure. I think I just liked ALL Halloween specials, to be honest. I liked horror movies and scary stories since I was a kid—maybe it started with Michael Jackson’s “Thriller” video. So, yeah, anytime a show started getting spooky, I was pleased. I also had a lot of nightmares, though.[Laughs.]
Oh! Ernest Scared Stupid! That was my favorite halloween special. I think it was theatrical, and definitely not a cartoon, but I’m gonna choose it anyway. Uh… I haven’t watched it in a long time, though.
What are you watching or reading or listening to now that you love, cartoons or movies or music or otherwise?
I went sort of crazy for Grimes’ album Art Angels when that came out. It changed my brain, in a good way. I really, really loved the Pixar short “Piper” that came out recently; I have an idea for something in that vein, which I’d love to do someday. I recently enjoyed the the game Out There Chronicles: Episode 1 a lot. Umm… I’m not sure what else. I feel like I shouldn’t say most of the things I’m into these days, because they’re influences for the project I’m currently working on, and I don’t want to build up any expectations.
Finally, we have to ask, although we have our theories: What’s with the turtles?
It’s an imperfection in the quilt.
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