Thales CEO Expects Women to Wait 150 Years for Parity
On Horrible Gender Gap: “It’s a Long Journey”
CEO Patrice Caine discloses shocking 2% female leadership staff increase in 5 years, from 14% to 16%. Why don’t journalists cover this problem more?
Please note: the point of this article series “In My Notes” is to take people behind the scenes in journalism (transparency!), share some observations (let’s discourse!) and highlight an issue (information!) This is the first in the series.
In My Notes
I went to the on record Paris lunch with Thales CEO Patrice Caine wondering why women’s workplace inequality isn’t discussed more by journalists and industry leaders.
The answer was sharp and clear: because they don’t want to — both journalists and CEOS.
As a woman of color I see that gender is the bigger issue we face worldwide. Not religion or race but gender.
Just look at what has better legal protections and gets airtime and faster aid around the world. It’s not women.
Women’s equality and safety is not front and center to change, it wasn’t on Biden’s day one priorities list. We still avoid dealing with it, from pay and opportunity to body sovereignty and safety. It’s like it’s too big to handle. Say what?
People still blithely excuse sexual assaults as how men are and say women need to be nicer to make career advancements. As insane as all that is, the facts show that when women lead, their families and communities do better.
Keeping women down is not only rude and hostile it’s bad for business. The small number of women leading in industry really doesn’t make sense.
So when I met Caine, CEO of a multi-national military industrial complex company with a staff of over 80,000, I thought to ask about the number of women at the company. Seems basic enough.
Thales’ military, aerospace, technology and banking work is an important nexus and it’s staffing is important.
Staffing is Policy
From what I saw online the number of women leading at Thales looked very low. But as French companies can be strong at staffing women, and I couldn’t see much online, I was looking forward to it. The company is impressive.
Thales will supply British Passports after Brexit. Their work goes to Mars, literally, as their products are in space travel. Thales is involved in 80% of the worlds banking transactions and employ in 68 countries. Two out of three planes in the world use their equipment. (They gave us all kinds of statistics at lunch, none on female employees and leadership though.)
In my research of Caine I saw a picture of him shaking Vladimir Putin’s hand at a meeting. Caine’s said to be a Bilderberg attendee. (That’s the super secret yearly gathering of power players said to run the world.)
The CEO’s company supplies materials to all sides and deals with super spy Putin. He can certainly talk about his staffing choices.
On Background: How I Got to Lunch That Day
I’d been working on a book for the past few years in Paris and was getting back to journalism, my first time doing it overseas. I didn’t know many journalists in Paris (read: any) but was introduced to the oldest English language press group at the start of 2020.
Now I’m not the type to join groups — never fitting in during school years makes submitting to the whims of others for membership not it — but I went to drinks and the group was full of interesting people.
I’d missed brilliant commentary from journalists, and was reminded how sad it is people don’t get to hear it. Talk of wars (Rhodesian!) and being expelled from countries swirled amidst the foolishness of Brexit and the deadly virus expanding from China. For so many reasons I was happy to be getting back to news fulltime.
Amid the fun however, I was taken aback by some of the senior men snickering at my (logical) bend to discuss events as continued consequences of colonial rule and mindset, specifically racism and sexism. Strange. It made the fact I seemed to be the only Black journalist at the event stand out.
It started when I innocently asked what women they were including on a story they were working on. They laughed dismissively, like I was a child asking questions beyond my purview. I was shocked.
As a mixed race woman I am used to being in groups of white men of power and position shifting and smiling in discomfort when topics drift to the obvious horrors they benefit from because it causes them face their complicit behavior, but I didn’t expect it from seasoned journalists — especially with libations in hand.
That they were staffed while we women freelance gave their insouciance extra weight.
However, as I’m no longer a newbie starting at the time of Monica Lewinsky and Chandra Levy (that’s in the book), I’ve learned to lean in and smile encouragingly to greet the awkward silence men leave in the wake of a challenging thought. Not letting them off the hook, as women have encouraged, is how we get progress after all. Got to breathe through the muscle tension and discomfort to get the growth. People forget the heart is a muscle.
If journalists evade sexism themselves no wonder advancing questions on the topic aren’t put to leaders — AKA the very people who can bring change.
Dang. I was glad to have wine to chase this ugly truth as well as the supportive glances from the women who were subjected to this insolence. A simple look can restore. The sisterhood is strong.
That exchange aside — there’s often something like that in my life — I decided to join.
The group organizes on the record press events with notable people from business, culture and politics. I never thought to go to one but late in the year — Covid isolation taking it’s toll — there was a lunch with the Thales CEO.
May as well see what these events are like?
Plus the address meant I had to go: “Carpe Diem” tower. Come on. The universe put an exclamation on it.
New York in Paris
When I turned through the revolving doors to the new grey and white lobby, I felt like I was back in my NY news life. Especially after going through a canyon of steel and glass streets to arrive.
Welcome back, Gillis.
The lobby made me flashback to Los Angeles and a story I did on Amgen, the big pharmaceutical company. The space reminded me of that. Strange.
Amgen remained in my minds-eye a fortress of security, something I found odd for a company that trades in medicine. It didn’t say healing and wellbeing it said secretive and forbidden, very odd for a company whose end product is supposed to be nourishing.
As a journalist I am used to being watched by a company but Amgen was extreme. Each step tracked by a camera or accessed by an ID card.
This Paris lobby felt like that only smaller.
Dozens of floors up I found the Thales lobby to be small and unassuming for such a corporate giant, but the wow factor of a view reminded.
It was all Paris. Grand. Stunning. Gorgeous.
Then in the conference room I was taken aback by one wall of all windows. Eiffel tower? Check. Fondation Louis Vuitton looking like a Monopoly piece below? Check. Trees in fall glory as The Seine rambles below? Check.
To work here, let alone to run it as our lunch companion did, how could you not feel like a ruler of the world? You look out and see all the people, well, you imagine them because you can’t quite make out the people this high up, just buildings and neighborhoods. You see humanity but not people.
Maybe that’s part of the problem?
High above see level these CEO’s choices determine so much those below don’t even know they don’t know, yet are affected by.
The weight of the choices by people like Caine is something journalists are aware of as well. Part of the work is to bridge the space between; to make clear if there is problem here up high that the people should know about.
To sound alarms.
The Three Course Lunch
There were waiters for our conference room lunch. Waiters.
I’d never been to a business lunch like this, it’s not usual in America for journalists, but France has its own traditions and this one worked for me. I could eat a multi course lunch. It wasn’t going to change my question.
There were about 10 of us Covid spaced out and masked up around the large conference room table.
We went around introducing ourselves but most seemed to know each other.
“Leah Gillis, indépendante,” I said, as everyone else had big media companies like Reuters and Bloomberg behind them. There was also a publication I’d never heard of but the guy’s questions told me it was solid. I let them do their thing and waited ’til the end, finding waiters’ service to be impressive.
The Last Question
“Your industry is extremely male,” I started but Caine indicated he didn’t catch the word male so I repeated it and continued.
“Your own board-” I said and he interrupted me.
“-actually our board is-“
“- your executive committee,” I added and then stopped, allowing him space to reply. He was silent.
He knew what I knew, the reason for his finding silence: the executive committee statistic sunk whatever good he was going to say.
“Yes, this is not the same,” he admitted**.
Frankly I was surprised at his interruption. He’d been so even tempered for the over hour long Q&A, patiently allowing the guys to drone on with their questions so I didn’t expect it, especially a few words in.
Since Thales’ stats demonstrated low numbers of women in leadership I wasn’t surprised he quickly retreated before demurely indicating it wasn’t good. What surprised me was that he tried to highlight the women on the board, which was apparently a rare bright spot of parity for women at the giant. As if that made up for the lack of opportunity for women on the executive committee and, as I was now suspecting overall at the behemoth.
(Also why do people this? Why argue for the one stat that’s not horrible when the rest are? There is still a problem and like food hidden under a bed it will eventually stink. I know it’s his job to put the best foot forward but still. If I hadn’t known about the committee stat he would’ve looked good but wasn’t? What is that?)
“Right, as I was saying,” and I proceeded to ask if he thought that as an industry leader, internationally no less, he felt a responsibility to lead by increasing women leadership at the company.
He indicated that he did and spoke about diversity in general, including academic. I could tell these bad numbers irked him, but was he irked because women deserve equal opportunity, or because he had a bad spot at the company? I wasn’t sure.
His wandering into “diversity” felt an avoidance of my specific question on women, but then he shared some internal stats related to women that were notable.
He repeated several times that at a senior level, and that only, over the past five years Thales had gone from 14% women to “close to 17%.” He added that “its an achievement to have changed this percentage at the top level of the company in such a short period of time.”
What I heard though was 16 percent female leadership. What I heard was a desperate attempt to round up. Trying to make a dismal number palatable.
He wasn’t making lemonade from lemons he was serving the rind with a smile.
He pressed on.
“When you take the top management layers, three points, it’s already a huge task if I may say. It may sound modest but… it’s a long journey.”
Modest is one word for it. Wonder how he would feel if that was his journey?
He mentioned the word “initiatives” to work on it and said it is something he is pushing for it. If that is leadership growth for women what’s it like at lower levels? Yikes.
And then it was over. The press person thanked everyone for coming.
One of the women in our group leaned over to me.
“Very good question. Well done.”
Takeaway
Honestly I was stunned: two percent improvement in 5 years?
At this rate to get parity in leadership at Thales it would take 150 years!
Would he remain CEO if he brought in a similar profit after five years?
His answer and no firm plan to radically change this staffing issue illustrated how those at the top level don’t feel a pressure to include women. There are no firm goals and so it doesn’t happen. Well, it happens at a glacial pace.
I mean, what difference would more women make in the war-technology-finance-aerospace industry?
Exactly.
As James Baldwin famously said in the 60s about racial rights, “you always told me it takes time…how much time do you want for your progress?”
Caine’s subtext was as ridiculous as it was clear. Come on, we can’t ruffle men’s feathers.
As if they are so fragile they will break at having women managers.
The approach of doing what I can by “giving options to hiring managers” means women depend on men to move the needle at their comfort.
Hence 150 years for parity — if women are lucky!
Caine first said, “Communication, communication, communication,” was key.
I wanted to laugh. Relying on men to do it, about women rights no less, well, it gets us these micro improvements.
Bush famously (and ridiculously) said he looked into Putin’s eyes and saw his soul and that he was a good and decent man. I’m not saying all that for Caine, but I did see shame and that is something.
He mentioned a duty to not only women but also to diversity, which was a respectful nod to me, the questioner. That is something but not enough. Not at all.
“C’est compliqué” is a common phrase in France, but this isn’t.
Women’s rights groups are getting louder everywhere for a reason: enough with the waiting. No more stalling dudes.
Discrimination against women is an issue everywhere. So too is proof of how it continues to thrive, something made clear again in France last summer at top graduate school ENS.
Due to Covid final exams were changed, meaning students only had written ones, oral exams were cancelled. The exams were bias proof. The result was double the amount of females accepted into a humanities program to 80%. 80.
Macron has a minister accused of rape. Poland recently ruled to make abortion illegal and many women in America earn almost half what men do. It’s an issue worldwide.
With some journalists and publications oddly comfortable with not reporting alarming facts or asking questions on these important fronts, it’s clear it will require a concerted effort to confront those in power to create conversation and bring change. Otherwise women engineers at a top firm will have to wait 150 years for parity.
Around the world women are doing brave work to keep the pressure on for equal pay and opportunities, among other issues.
Groups like Femen, Les Glorieuses and Les Lionnes are having an effect in France. So on this day as an independent journalist I did my part.
Sixteen percent women in leadership positions at Thales? Two percent improvement in five years. That sure is…something.
But the lunch (minus the rind) and view were lovely.
*As of March 2021 the executive committee has 11 men, 3 women.
