F**k it — I’ll do it myself.

Willa Stoutenbeek: on attitude for the greater good and on the act of manning up.

[AD] The owner of the W. Green agency, over 20 years in branding, communications & PR, regular appearances in Dutch press & TV, remarkable public speaking credentials. To us, women, being in the centre of the stage does not seem to come naturally. Through nature or nurture — how did you manage to let that ‘stage gene’ come out?

[WGS] I enjoyed being the centre of attention since I was young [laughs]. It started naturally, but then — it was wiped out of my system…

[AD] Why?

[WGS] Because the Dutch education system and the Dutch culture tell us that we shouldn’t stand out. There’s a Dutch saying: ‘the highest trees catch the most wind’… Another one: ‘the corn above the mowing field gets chopped off’…

[AD] ‘Doe maar normaal dan doe je al gek genoeg!’ [laughs]

[WGS] ‘Just act normal’. This ‘don’t stand out, don’t be different, don’t think you’re better than anyone else’ made me insecure for a very long time. From elementary school, until I was in my twenties — I acquired the biggest stage fright!

[AD] What made you remember that you are that stage star?

[WGS] I got to do the Ted Talk. They wanted to know what I’m going to say — word by word — I had to memorise it by heart. I got trapped in old insecurities. I got on stage with cards. I should have never done that because that was unnatural to me, that’s not how my brain works. I like to have a top-line idea, and then … I improvise. Although I hated it, I did want to study my performance. I thought: if you want to get better at this, you have to work on it, you have to understand where your strengths are.

I learned that one of my biggest strengths is that I can embody a feeling. I learned that people like seeing vulnerability. I learned that being emotionless is something that we should not strive for. Emotions are human. I learned to surrender to that actual connection instead of going for a static, prepped, flawless, robot-type of story.

[AD] The power of vulnerability is often associated with ‘the female style’ of leadership — may it be yet another labelling trap?

[WGS] Whenever I think of female leadership the first example that comes to my mind is Barack Obama…

[AD] Bam!

[WGS] On the other hand — we have Angela Merkel who, just like Margaret Thatcher, embodies male leadership. I don’t agree with everything Obama has done, but it was refreshing to see someone so different from what we had seen until that point in that type of role…

[AD] …or even in our history? In the opening interview of the Female Heroes series, Els Kuijpers called it his-tory and talked about the desire to subvert that pattern as something that we, as women, have in common. In the following dialogue, Sione Raaijmakers talked about working around the system that discriminates and the work that is not working for us. You mentioned the ‘don’t stand out’ culture. Although the latter would also affect men — it is predominantly women who remain trapped in this ‘I cannot do it, I’m not good enough’ limbo — it seems to be part of us…

[WGS] I don’t think it’s part of us, I think it’s part of the conditioning of women. Look at how little boys are being spoken to and encouraged from a young age while little girls are being told: ‘be careful, don’t hurt yourself, that’s not ladylike, don’t do this, don’t do that’. Because of it — I developed this survival modus, ‘the fight mode’…

[AD] Can you give some examples?

[WGS] When there’s an issue — I’m programmed to

just ‘man up’… [pause] ‘man up’ and do it!

It is unhealthy, it’s not sustainable in the long run, and it’s stopping me from things — especially now that I am a mother of a four-year-old child.

[AD] A boy?

[WGS] Who calls himself a girl…

[AD] Do you encourage that?

[WGS] I don’t encourage it and I also don’t restrict it — I’m trying to keep it as open as possible. I don’t want to give my child any baggage. I don’t want my child to develop in a way that was ignited by me — whether that’s a little boy who feels like a girl and behaves like an alpha male ….

[AD] Something your child takes after the mom? …

[both laugh]

We’re trying to get out of the ‘feminine versus masculine’ box, while society is not yet ready for the ‘out-of-the-box scenario’. Often, we are forced to play roles that make us feel like we live in someone else’s skin…

[WGS] If you look at the Yin and the Yang, everyone has male and female energy in them. One of the biggest issues in our society is that we are not allowed to be in touch with our feminine side. Men are not allowed to be in touch with their feminine side. Women, especially in business, are not allowed to be in touch with their feminine side. We’re being taught to be tough, to work hard, to be strong, to be cutthroat, and to be emotionless. There are some women acting like men who can benefit from this system. There are also males who can’t play this game. If you look at it from a holistic perspective — nobody really benefits from it (although, financially, men benefit more).

In the past, when I used to work with men, I’d become one of the boys, I could live up to that. They would make a sex joke — I would top it and make them blush. They were trying to shock me — I flipped the script on them. They can’t get me if I’m stronger than them. It was an act, a coping mechanism, where you try to find your way into a toxic system… But is it healthy?

[AD] This drive to survive — was it behind the decision to set up your ‘own shop’ so early on in your career?

[WGS] I grew up thinking that I never wanted to be an entrepreneur. Both of my parents were entrepreneurs. As a child, I witnessed the negative side of it. My mom was always working. The good thing was — when she was around, she was very present, she was there 200%. She was there for us but not enough for herself. This was her way of surviving the situation. Now, being a mother myself, I’m learning too, in that sense: it is important to take care of yourself. That’s the example I want to set for my child.

[AD] Was taking matters into your own hands a way of taking care of yourself?

[WGS] I had worked full-time since I was seventeen. I did that because I didn’t succeed in high school. I did seven different schools, I was diagnosed with all kinds of things (ADHD, gifted, depression). I was always the difficult child, the troublemaker. That’s why I’ve built a harness around myself to survive any situation. I was very ambitious, but I felt like I can’t really aim too high because I don’t have an education. For a big chunk of those years, I was depressed and sometimes suicidal. By the time I was nineteen, I found that switch in myself. I started to understand what people wanted from me and what I had to offer. From that moment on, I went into speed train mode — I flew around the world, and I met beautiful, interesting, and successful people. I was making quite a lot of money at a young age. Yet — I didn’t allow myself to feel happy and I didn’t allow myself to think: it’s not really my thing. It was a toxic situation. After ten years of this roller coaster, I got into burnout, I had financial issues, and I was too proud to ask for help — it was a big black hole. For the first time ever I asked myself: what is it that I actually want to do? I wanted to work with sustainability, fashion and lifestyle but there were no jobs like that…

[AD] You were way ahead of time….

[WGS] I got recruited for several things, one of them being Levi’s. I got to the last conversation with the local marketing director and I asked him: what are you doing on topics of sustainability? And he said: ‘that’s none of your business, you shouldn’t be worried about that because they decide that in San Francisco’ …

[AD] .. the corporate ‘bla bla/hands-off’ response?

[WGS] Yes — the marketing where you ‘just don’t worry about these kinds of things’.

I felt like I cannot work for these companies, I felt like there was no room for me. I didn’t want to live up to their expectations, I didn’t want to act like someone that I’m not, and I didn’t want to be part of the dirty industry anymore. And then I thought: f**k it — I’ll do it myself.

[both laugh]

[AD] Here’s to the grand vision!

[WGS] That is my grand vision — f**k it — I’ll do it myself.

[AD] You have been calling out the creative industry to do the conscience check before it even was a topic of debate. W.Green has been leading thought-provoking and unbelievably honest campaigns for trailblazing brands asking all of us: are you ready for that? Advocating for a kinder business to running yours unapologetically with a 100% female crew…. are you a revolutionary, future teller, pioneer, chief cheerleader, or a realist?

[WGS] I’m probably a mix between the three — a revolutionary, a pioneer and a chief cheerleader. If you talk about a revolutionary or a pioneer, there’s something very individualistic about it. I do have a part of me that feels very strongly about things. I will fight for it. The cheerleading part — I cheer for my team, I cheer for the client, I try to motivate people, I try to make it fun and energetic. Also — my whole life I wanted to be a cheerleader …

[both laugh]

[AD] And now you made it happen….

[WGS] Yes, I did. I’m also the chief. My ideal type of leadership is more of a holacracy — everyone has their own part and their own responsibility. I try to put everyone in their strength, to give them space. That’s what I’m trying to teach my team: to take more of the stage, try to step into their own light and into their own power. The one thing I always get back from them — they feel safe: safe to say anything they want, safe to be who they want to be. I’m trying to find a balance between leading, holding their hand, giving freedom and asking to take responsibility. Important thing is that the agency isn’t too dependent on me.

[AD] Why the 100% female team?

[WGS] It happened naturally. The fact that we work only with women, or the majority is women, comes from our values, what we stand for, how outspoken we are about social justice, feminism, equality and being able to show vulnerability. That, maybe, speaks more to women? You see — nature only thrives when things are diverse. If there’s too much of something, it gets out of balance. It’s like with too many rabbits [laughs]… If you are true to diversity, then that means a broad spectrum in gender. Everyone is welcome — but, if I have two hiring options with similar credentials — I will always prioritise minorities. Because we are still not offered the same opportunities — if I can offer one, I’ll do it.

[AD] Taking that rabbit metaphor — I’m wondering: how much longer will nature take to regulate matters of the rabbit-infested creative industry…? [laughs] Down the rabbit hole — what are the most pressing issues that need challenging within our industry?

[WGS] Ego.

[both laugh]

I have an ego, but I try to challenge myself. The ego is the self — the self can also help you get things done, the self makes you different from the next person. As long as the goal is bigger than the ego — it’s okay. You shouldn’t feel better than the other person, and you shouldn’t feel like your ideas are naturally better. Injustice? That’s where ‘the fight mode’ comes back.

[AD] Have you ever tried to compete in the big design awards to promote some of that feisty work?

[WGS] No. I haven’t really felt the necessity. We did get invited a couple of times, but then — you have to pay for it. I get that this is the model, but it doesn’t feel right. I care about doing things. I care about the work that we do. I don’t care so much about the recognition.

[AD] Says the Queen of PR, branding & communication … [laughs]

What do you make of being a female hero?

[WGS] I don’t consider myself a female hero.

[AD] Why not?

[WGS] Maybe that’s the old Dutch culture or maybe .. try asking an actual superhero? They might say the same… [laughs] I don’t want to see myself as a saviour.

[AD] What do you see if you take the helicopter view and look at your life and career?

[WGS]

I see a rebel turned into someone with a clear vision, ambition and a ‘f**k you attitude’ which I try to use for the greater good. At the end of the day, I’ll be happy if what I did would leave the world a bit better …. or at least wouldn’t make it uglier than it was.

[AD] What’s your advice to all the women out there in the creative industry?

[WGS] Own your power — own your skills and talents, share them, show them. Show vulnerability. Don’t be afraid to be judged, don’t be afraid of rejection — that’s a step closer to where you want to go. Let’s stop hiding and let’s start claiming our own space. If you claim space, you don’t have to do it in a colonising way. Women are naturally better at collaborating, but because of the industry — we were made to believe that there’s no room for more than one or two women at the top — therefore, we’re fighting against each other, elbowing each other out.

What if we join forces and get to the top together? Alone is faster, together is better.

There are so many beautiful stories left untold.

[AD] Like yours?

[WGS] Mine is not untold.

[laughs]

About Willa Stoutenbeek:

Willa is the founder of W.Green — a Sustainable Branded Communication Agency. She started working in fashion when she was 17. After 15 years in the industry, she dedicated herself to working with sustainable fashion & lifestyle. In 2010 she founded W.Green under the umbrella of the leading Amsterdam PR agency — Spice PR. She is also the founder of MINT (a sustainable fashion platform connected to Modefabriek). Since 2013, Willa dedicated herself fully to leading W.Green.

About Anna Duszczynska: I’m a brand strategist and the founder of A.D. new world — brand design consultancy for social enterprises, B-corps, zebra start-ups and impact brands. Through this series of interviews, I want to contribute to building a better, more equal and inclusive creative industry.