An Online ‘Discussion’
Exposing the underbelly debate pro and con Bernie.
Welcome to a cliché Left vs Right debate online.
If you want to understand the underbelly of US politics read this ‘discussion’.
I tried online commenting for a bit on Youtube. At first I thought I wasted my time with this. But spending some effort in crazy discussions led to me to wonder and consider a lot. And it made me write three articles on very different aspects about the whole ordeal (See the links at the bottom). For now, feel free to jump, or skip many bits, just get a great impression. Welcome to the zoo.
Questions for the journey.
Want to understand why the left and right can’t even understand each other? Want to see how people make many debating mistakes? Want to be amazed how deeply indoctrinated many in the USA really are? Then enjoy this ‘debate’ full of repeating left and right wing talking points, spread by politicians and mass media.
I left all comments as exact as possible (I only improved a few spelling mistakes to improve reading and threw out some solo comments nobody reacted on. By the way: the video they comment on, hardly matters. Enjoy the read. Everywhere I found it useful I added comments in Italic, starting with (comment).
The Debate, somewhere end of January 2020
We start somewhere in the debate, it matters not so much where. Check more whether you think people either try to really engage, pretend they do, just want to sink to other, are avoid arguments they have no reaction to.
lurocp84 days ago (edited)
@Enlightened Rod They said they’re supporting the Democrat Party this election. You can make up whatever reality you’d like based off of your brain-dead Media, but the reality of where there money is going is to the Left. Time to conjure up some other boogeyman. Maybe just stick with calling everyone Nazi KKK Hitler Alt-right bigot.
(comment) I wonder how many talking points which have become ‘truth’ for one side are clearly ‘idiocy’ for the other. Even ‘facts’ don’t help. When one researches facts with a clear bias, no real insights will be found. Always check how facts are framed, and what is not shown.
I also wonder about the amount of insults when people disagree. Do they get angry when others don’t accept the logic of the bubble they live in? Insults hurt whatever way they go, as seen in the comment above.
Enlightened Rod4 days ago
@lurocp8 Even Koch Brother’s Funded Research found Bernies Healthcare would reduce $2 Trillion from our deficit over 10 years. Most other Analysis has it between $2–5 over 10 years. You say Bernie supporters only go off talking points which I assume you’re saying is baseless; That’s a projection, that’s what conservatives do (We’re the Constitutional Republic, Not a Democracy; Socialism is Communism, I don’t see Abuse of Power in the Constitution) those are just a few out of the mountain of uneducated conservative talking points. I’ve familiarized myself with all these disputes, have been a student of History, studied Social Sciences so I wouldn’t be fooled. I’ve been Independent voting both ways for 25 years waiting for a true Reformer to emerge out of one of the two parties in our broken system. Plus your Stats are WAY OFF For the last 40 years the super-rich now I’m talking about the richest .1% (1/10th of 1%) of Americans or about 175k households have accumulated a large share of our nation’s economic gains. ◾| In 1980 the richest .1% owned less than 10% of the nation’s total wealth. The top 9.9% owned 56% The bottom 90% owned 36% ◾| Today (2019) the richest .1% own 22% of the nation’s total wealth. The top 9.9% owned 55% The bottom 90% owned 23% [SOURCE: Washington Center for Equitable Growth] The share owned by the richest 400 had grown even faster, jumping from less than 1% in 1982, to 3.5% in 2018 and as of 2018 they now pay a lower tax rate than any other income group in the country. Due in large part to Trump’s MASSIVE tax cuts for billionaires and corporations. [SOURCE: Washington Post][NOTE: Federal, State, and Local taxes] The THREE richest Americans have more wealth than the bottom HALF of Americans combined. Jeff Bezos alone has $110 Billion dollars. A Billion is a thousand — Million dollars, $110 Billion is 110 thousand — million dollars.
(comment) Enlightened goes for it. He tries to inform Luro, I think.
Enlightened Rod4 days ago
@lurocp8 You presume too much. You presume my media diet is what I will presume is the usual Conservative trope (CNN, MSNBC) which would be a gross falsity. ProPublica, POLITICO, NYT, The Hill, WaPo, BI, WSJ, The Intercept, Guardian, etc.. That’s not counting the Michael Moores, Noam Chomsky’s, Chris Hedges, Robert Reich and other political scientists giving lectures, debating, or being interviewed at prestigious Universities. 99% of Conservative data comes from Cato Institutes or other industry-funded, skewed data that they then use to deny War Veterans, 9/11 first responders, Citizens Healthcare coverage and services. I suggest Crash Course Navigating Digital Information — to learn source checking.
(comment) Then some berating appears in his comment.
Enlightened Rod4 days ago
@lurocp8 As a Conservative you must be unaware of the Third Way Centrist Corporate Branch of the Democratic Party who’ve been endorsing Establishment Democrats for years. See, the Democratic Party ISN’T A MONOLITH in the way Republicans are. Republicans will vote for (and have) criminals, pedophiles, & extortionists over the past 40 years (Since the Southern Strategy [70s] and Neoliberal Reform [80s]). Democrats still have debate, conflict, and a human concise, that’s why Hillary lost in 2016. Absentee protest voters were tired of Establishment Democrats. A LOT has changed since Bernies 2016 grassroots revolution. The 2018 & 2019 Blue Tsunamis prove that, and 2020 will be more of the same. The largest party in the US is the Non-Voting party, some 100 million strong, and Bernie has energized them as well as 18–35 traditionally non-voters. Both of which vastly outnumber Boomers and Conservatives (18%). 70% of Americans are liberal-leaning. So, keep thinking conspiracy opinionists/speculations from Breitbart, Infowars, and Faux with Industry-funded data is real news, and I’ll keep reading CDC, FBI, Independent, & International reports with sourced transparent evidence
(comment) Enlightened ends with saying Bernie is more mainstream than Luro seems to know and then becomes a but cynical. This triggers Luro..
lurocp84 days ago
@Enlightened Rod Wow! That was a laughably bad example of legitimate sources of information. If you were mocking someone with a list of fake news sources, you couldn’t have done much better. I go to the SOURCE. If it’s a video, I try to find the longest unedited video I can (Covington Catholic Kids for example). If it’s crime statistics, Department of Justice website and/or metropolitan police sites, especially ones that don’t lump Hispanics into Whites when they’re the perpetrators and a standalone category when they’re a victim. All the people and entities you mentioned have gotten so many things wrong so many times and just flat out ignore issues that don’t push a Left to Far-Left narrative (Black on White crime rates for example). As far as Economics and common sense, I trust my own knowledge. Leftists have no idea how to research, which is why they’re Leftists in the first place.
(comment) Luro is kicks back, convinced he is ahead of the game. Sadly the statistics he seeks out betray a racist mindset seeking confirmation of his own bias. And he isn’t finished yet.
lurocp84 days ago
@Enlightened Rod Your statistics regarding the 1% did absolutely NOTHING to disprove what I wrote. You need to study a lot more. The threshold for 1% in the US is about $440,000/yr HOUSEHOLD income, exactly like I stated. The 0.1% is about $2.7 million. And that’s based on a NATIONAL cost of living. In states like Vermont (Bernie’s home state), 1% is about $350,000/yr. Everything you posted regarding the wealthy and what they own was a giant red herring.
lurocp84 days ago
@Enlightened Rod What’s even more laughably false about your stats regarding the wealthy and the top 0.1%, is your implication that someone’s income is static. It’s something Sanders’ supporters don’t seem able to comprehend. For instance, if there are 10 people in the world and they all make $100/yr, everything is equal. Out of those 10, if two of them now make $500/yr and the other eight now make $125/yr, everyone is better off than they were. What you people do is look at the two people making $500/yr and complain that they make more than the other eight people combined. You people think that if you take money from the two people making $500, somehow the other eight people will have more. It’s just jealousy and a lack of common sense on how an economy functions.
(comment) You people? Clearly some people live in different bubbles.
Enlightened Rod4 days ago
@lurocp8 I agree with and I do reference local and state statistics where applicable. As does ALL the sources I mentioned (The Investigative Journalism, NOT Op-Eds) You know the difference right? Plus you would know that if you read their investigative reports they source all their information with hyperlinks. You mention the Covington Catholic High School incident, what was your conclusion on the matter? Personally, I reserved my opinion until there was enough evidence to have an opinion. My immediate response to the viral news was “Too much speculation, not enough evidence”. It wasn’t until the NYT obtained enough source material and released their investigative report that I had an educated opinion, largely based on their report. What did you think of the NYT video timeline and conclusion? Fake News? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG_E2g3fL8M
(comment) Enlightened now gives Luro some benefit of the doubt and offers an open question.
Enlightened Rod4 days ago
lurocp8 You’re on the right path by using source information as the primary function for your opinion. The fault lies in your disregarding important resources of investigative journalism & credible information; which I know to be partisan driven cynicism and skepticism. I’m not suggesting not to be skeptical, everything should be viewed on a sliding-scale of skepticism — based on factors like (Sampling size, source credibility, data factors, bias, etc..) I’ve relied on the investigative research methods and academic research used for centuries for my opinions. For nearly 25 years it has served me well in making astute deductions within a small degree of marginal error. Your speculative opinion of my cognitive abilities driven on a bias presumption & a fallacious notion that the sources I provided are “Fake News” only broadens my observational opinion that you lack discipline in information research. I don’t say this to be condescending, but to try and bring awareness to you in hope that you may change your bigoted scope clouding your deductive reasoning. Please, from one American to another watch [Crash Course Navigating Digital Information](https://youtu.be/hxhbOvR2TGk) There is A LOT of useful information to abide by. Please let me know what you think. Sincerely, Your American Brother
(comment) And again Enlightened, while trying to engage in a real dialogue can’t contain a few kicks. A sentence like this, is not helping: “I don’t say this to be condescending, but to try and bring awareness to you in hope that you may change your bigoted scope clouding your deductive reasoning.” My brain just reads: “You bigot!”
Also we always must be careful not to make one case, generic for the whole field. One Redneck/Mexican/Black/Native Americans actions can never represent all of them.
lurocp84 days ago
@Enlightened Rod Washington Post jumped the gun on the Covington kids story. So much so that they had to print a retraction. So did Michael Moore. If you think the New York Times, hiding behind the guise of “opinion” absolves them from any responsibility, you’re naive. Every column is an opinion column, unless they’re just showing data and nothing else, which exactly none of the “News” sources you cited come anywhere close to doing. The New York Times is a publisher and willingly chooses which op-ed pieces to publish and more often than not, it follows their extreme Leftist bias. Further, investigative journalism is meaningless if they don’t “investigate” in an unbiased way. For instance, you likely can name at least 5–8 Black people, off the top of your head, that have been killed by police in the last 5–6 years, including first, last name, details of the incident, city that it occurred in and in some cases, the offending officer’s name and possibly even the District Attorney. However, twice as many White people are killed by police each year than Black people, according to the Guardian (yes, your Guardian). It’s likely, you can’t name more than one or two White people killed by police in the last 150 years! Obviously, they’re pushing an agenda, and that includes Fox News and any other Corporate news. As far as your video, yes, it’s entirely Fake News and is a perfect example of how biased rags like the NYT are. I was gonna give you the benefit of the doubt on that video, but it was such an egregiously biased video, I couldn’t ignore it. The video paints the lying POS Nathan Phillips as someone who tried “to diffuse the tension” between the kids and the racist Black guys (I’m not going to call them the Black Hebrew Israelites as that is such a benign designation and what Fake News sites like WaPo and NYT do all the time. It’s akin to calling the Nazis, the National Socialists German Worker’s Party rather than Nazis. One has bite and the other is just a benign label). Nathan Phillips claimed that the kids chanted “build that wall” when not one video of them shows anything of the sort. He’s also the one that claimed the kids approached him and blocked his path. Plus, the video said the kids chanted, rather than saying they chanted their SCHOOL SONG. It paints an entirely different narrative of what really happened. At the end, it looks like the lying piece of shit Indian (they’re not native to North America) was trying to bring everyone together when he was the instigator of the entire thing. So yeah, horribly fake fake news. The article below was is a WaPo article on the Guardian’s investigation on police killings. See if you can see the grave statistical error that WaPo makes when they try to rationalize why Whites are killed more than Black people. People on the Left can rarely use critical thought to discern truth, even when they’re confronted with what seems like empirical statistical data. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/
(comment) Luro clearly sees the same video with very different eyes.
Interestingly many really left media call the New York Times a mouthpiece for corporate interests, while right wingers like Luro see it pushing a leftish agenda.
Then: twice as many white people have been killed by the police as blacks, says Luro. That’s hustling statistics. Because what is the general ratio of white and black people in the USA? Also how many of those killed waved a weapon? And how many were suicide by police? A famous saying is, “first there’s truth, then there’s half truths, then there’s lies and then there’s statistics.”
We’ll see this more often, people dropping in and out of the debate, sometimes picking up where others left off.
Raidersfan1 20173 days ago (edited)
@Andrew Olson Here we go again! “Keynesian economics” has been proven to work better than “laissez-faire economics”. Laissez-faire has been a failure for 39 years. You don’t cut your way to prosperity. You don’t run a country like a household, that’s a failure and it’s why the deficit is so high. The Republicans moronic “Two Santa Claus Theory” invented by that idiot Jude Winiski! The economy works better when people are healthy, educated and make a better than living wage. Conservatism is oppressive to everyone but the rich few. You need to read about economics. What has worked in the past, and what doesn’t work now. Because if you don’t want to go along with a progressive movement, “Worker Cooperatives” will do it anyways. It will drown out corrupt big business. Everyone moving their money to credit unions will take down the rich mans economy and make it work for everyone. Don’t keep pushing for more of the same, because most economists will tell you that you’re WRONG!!!!!
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Raidersfan1 2017 Here we go again. Another socialist who wants to spend other people’s money. Look at the countries Sanders praised in the past. Soviet Union, collapsed a couple of years after he favorable compared it to the US. Praised breadlines, said it means that there is plenty of food for the people. Cuba and Castro, and Venezuela. Though he doesn’t mention Venezuela these days.
(comment) Often repeated right wing talking point. If all tax is theft, then yes this makes sense. “Another socialist who wants to spend other people’s money.” That tax can also be seen as shared wealth to be used for all is clearly a strange idea for Andrew.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Enlightened Rod You lose all credibility with the news sources you named. Most of those publications peddled Russia collusion conspiracy theories for two years.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Enlightened Rod How much money did the wealthiest steal off you? Can you prove that they stole any money off any one? Of coarse not. You are talking garbage. You or anybody else is not entitled to anyone else’s money.
(comment) With the pushing of the Russia story Andrew has a point, then spoils it by not realizing how upward money streams work. He’s looking for criminals one can see, while still paying taxes for false flag wars in the Middle East, that enriched arms dealers and oil companies, not US citizens.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@lurocp8 Sanders doesn’t even know how much everything will cost. https://www.mediaite.com/news/norah-odonnell-confronts-bernie-sanders-on-campaign-promises-you-dont-know-how-much-your-plan-costs/
N S3 days ago
@Andrew Olson You don’t even know what talking about. 😄😄😄😄
N S3 days ago
@Andrew Olson And everyone knows you’re liking your own comments 😆😆
(comment) N S is a typical commenter. Because shouting “You don’t know what you are talking about!” clearly lacks a clear indication of what Andrew got wrong according to N S. This lack (of patience, clarity?) is all over the place.
Reminder: What seems logical in ones own bubble must be explained to work for others.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@N S Do they, just like everyone knows Sanders Is a lazy communist who wants to destroy the American economy. By giving all the layabouts free stuff.
(comment) Andrew losing his patience, then makes the same mistake as N S. Why Bernie is lazy or a communist let alone wants to destroy the US economy is not explained. It seems Andrew doesn’t know that his ‘everybody’ isn’t everybody.
This is worrying: Only reenforcing opinions within our own bubble, makes us be more convinced of our own ‘right’ and makes all those others we don’t personally know ‘wrong’.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty Thinking isn’t your strength now. Who believes a socialist can run a free market economy. Imbeciles like you.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Scott H Just because you thumped a few keys on a keyboard. Doesn’t mean you have any intelligence.
(comment) Here Andrew is convinced he has a point. And.. he knows how to trigger people.
Realize that each time when you insult an other, because you think he is a moron; the moron thinks he’s winning, because the insults show you have no arguments left.
Dumpty Humpty3 days ago
@Andrew Olson so sad you’re suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect
Andrew Olson3 days ago (edited)
@Dumpty Humpty So sad you are suffering dipshititis. A condition where you think that socialism can work. Even after it has failed everywhere else.
(comment) While Dumpty may have a point, Andrew at the least offers the arguments he knows. He keeps trying to win the argument.. with a cliché right wing talking point: socialism failed everywhere! (And if it didn’t then it wasn’t real socialism)
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty USSR × GDR × Poland × Romania × Bulgaria × Hungary × Cuba × China × Vietnam × DPRK × Kampuchea ×
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty Breadlines https://youtu.be/RiM-yNEQ93I
(comment) Is Andrew adding to make his point, or adding comments to trigger a response from Dumpty?
Dumpty Humpty3 days ago
@Andrew Olson nice talking points but you really dont understand what’s called democratic socialism. What your probably pointing to is Venezuela or …….. but they are authoritarian governments not democratic socialism like the northern European countries It’s so sad young educated people due understand the difference biggest voter block in the 2020 election
(comment) This is where I added some oil on the water. Perhaps as dumb as some of the others. Let’s see where it leads.
KootFloris3 days ago (edited)
@Enlightened Rod Brilliant, why you had no likes before here stuns me. Must be the right wing trolls don’t want truth, they want to be right! And as always when the facts fry the Rights brain, they either run away and lie to themselves that you manipulate their fairytale #fakenews. Or start to insult. And lucky a few start to think or engage. With Bernie we see that moral winning like this is slow (30 years of telling the truth) but powerful. I fear now either the US changes to Bernie or the GOP/corporate money regime goes full dictatorship, because they have no other ground to stand on left.
(comment) Here I make a common mistake. I overlook the left (see above) insults just as well, let alone also manipulates evidence to be ‘right’. And I throw some oil on the fire.
Dumpty Humpty3 days ago
@Andrew Olson you don’t know they all were authoritarian communist countries right? Ever heard of the political spectrum index probably not!
Dumpty Humpty3 days ago
@Andrew Olson if you really want to learn something this is a great article to read!
(comment) My mistake, I forgot to copy the link.
KootFloris3 days ago
@Andrew Olson The super rich have corporate socialism. This means they do projects (for this they invest huge sums from banks), if they fail they get government funding to cover their losses. (which means your tax dollars, pay for their screw ups, remember the 2008 crisis?) Then your country has a huuuuuge deficit, blown up under Trump, all invested in the rich. That money has to be earned back by the US population in the future. That means austerity for you (cutting social programs) and they now are much richer, read @Enlightened Rod’s figures on who owns what in the USA earlier in the discussion. Up to this day you pay still for the 2004 false flag invasion in Iraq. And the US oil companies ain’t sharing their spoils of war with you. You’re ripped off time and again, and your children’s children will still pay for the robberies of today. And you’ll vote Trump, because he’s strong against immigrants (a non issue compared to this hidden theft, but so much more emotional)
(comment) You might expect a direct reaction, but in online discussions we’ll have to wait and see.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty And you must think people came down in the last shower if you think it is Democratic socialism. We know what his biggest supporter has said. The idiot Ocasio Cortez. We know what will happen if these cretins ever get into power. Sanders has been a socialist all his life. And he is still a socialist. The UK rejected the socialist, Corbyn. The same will happen to Sanders.
KootFloris3 days ago
@Andrew Olson Everyone who believes right wing propaganda believes Bernie is a lazy communists, who wants to destroy the economy. Why would he want to do that? Trump is the thief, read my other comment.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty Denmark not socialist. https://www.investors.com/denmark-tells-bernie-sanders-to-stop-calling-it-socialist/
(comment) It seems Andrew did look into the article and then searched for a counter argument. What Andrew seems blind to, is that many aspects of socialism have blended into Western European politics. Many people have this lack of being able to see shades of grey or compromise.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@KootFloris A cornucopia of rubbish. It doesn’t est matter if someone has a 100 trillion dollars. It is not yours. What is so hard for you cretins to realize. You don’t get to steal other people’s stuff. That is how socialism works. Read up on Kulaks in the Ukraine.
(comment) This feels as a bit more desperate. Andrew makes big jumps in one short reaction. To understand his comment we must assume convictions like: Socialism = stealing from the rich and being rich = worked hard for it.
Dumpty Humpty3 days ago
@Andrew Olson Sanders political views are pretty on the right side of the political spectrum if you see it true (through) European eyes
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty Which Northern European countries are Democratic socialists? Do you know the difference between Democratic socialism and social democracy?
(comment) It seems Andrew has been studying some shades of grey, about European democracies.
Dumpty Humpty3 days ago
@Andrew Olson https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/fox-news-host-ridiculed-for-comparing-denmark-to-venezuela-a8495686.html
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty He praised the Soviet Union, Cuba and breadlines.
(comment) He is probably Bernie Sanders. Why he jumps back to this might be clear. It seems Bernie must be proven left of Europe, and dangerous.
Dumpty Humpty3 days ago
@Andrew Olson yeah I switched them up correct
(comment) A rare thing. Dumpty admits a mistake. He switched up Social Democracies and Democratic Socialists. But, he misses that his point on Western Europe as example has been lost.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty When did they start being authoritarian?
Dumpty Humpty3 days ago
@Andrew Olson What do you think of cutting social security?
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@KootFloris Your other comment was gibberish. Name me a socialist society that has worked?
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@KootFloris He was kicked out of a commune because he talked all the time and didn’t do any work.
(comment) Should I have researched this story? Current Bernie is shown to work very hard, but who cares. He once said a commie thing. Apparently all former mistakes by Trump are forgiven.
Why do we expect to see our own side as faulty humans allowed to make mistakes and scrutinize the leaders from the other side of anything outside sainthood?
Dumpty Humpty3 days ago
@Andrew Olson All the countries you mentioned had a authoritarian leader like Romania/ Nicolae Ceaușescu and Poland/Wojeciech jaruzelski
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty All that story proved that Denmark isn’t a socialist state. It is a small, homogenous, with a free market economy state. In no way can it be compared to the US. The US has 320 million more people and two large minority groups. And there are more Asians in the US than people in Denmark.
(comment) This is one of the bullshit talking points turning up time and again: “What works in Denmark can’t work here, because we are so much bigger.” It seems Andrew forgets that thus Denmark has also much less people who pay the taxes to support such healthcare.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty Eastern European communism came from Russian communism. Were the Russians authoritarians at the start? For socialism/communism to ‘work’ it needs force. Capitalism is based on the free exchange between individuals.
(comment) So Capitalism is free of force, enforcing people? And does everyone have a free choice? Really? To be able to see that one needs a critical thinking education and an entrepreneurial gene. Not everyone is born with that.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty I notice you didn’t answer the other questions. Very telling, totally not like a socialist.
KootFloris3 days ago (edited)
@Andrew Olson hahahahah, that’s the idiots talking point. What about a healthy mix, like all of Western Europe has: social democracies. Mostly capitalism, some socialism. Hence we have cheap education, health care for everyone, great infrastructure, better tap water than the USA (less lead in it, which affects the brain), etc. Thanks to social(ist) programs integrated in our society. You might check global ranking on, happiest countries, richest inhabitants in general, best healthcare, best education and in almost all most West European countries score above the USA. And why does your right wing propaganda shout Venezuela each time socialism is mentioned? Because they don’t want you to have what we have. They’ll also forget to mention Venezuela is in the shits because of US blockades. Because socialism must be seen to fail! Otherwise you might vote for it.
Dumpty Humpty3 days ago
@Andrew Olson I’m recognizing the years of cold war propaganda. Keep believing this story. Nice talking to you. Goodluck winning the electoral vote in November
(comment) Dumpty gives up on Andrew. He has a point.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@KootFloris Most of those on the streets are living in Democrat run cities. Nothing to do with corporations. Maybe Bernie can house some of them in his three houses. Maybe all the dopey celebrities who have endorsed him can house the homeless and feed the poor with their vast riches. But as we know most are hypocrites like Bernie Sanders. Michael Moore supports him. A bigger bag of shit you won’t find anywhere in Europe. Makes a documentary on how much better the Cuban health system is over the US system. Then what does he do when he needs an operation. Goes to a US hospital. A multi millionaire who is still a multi millionaire. Just like the garbage celebrities going into hysterics over the immigration crisis and Trump’s wall. While they never offered to house any and have 20 foot fences around their mansions. I could go on all day about these champagne socialists and the imbeciles like you who believe this nonsense.
(comment) It is interesting how both on the left and right people are angry with the very rich, though a different group and for different reasons. Andrew meanwhile ignores researching the lists of US scores on topics. He might not want to know those.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty Run away. Another socialist loser seen off.
(comment) Here, Andrew betrays his agenda: winning. Winning at the cost of reason, dialogue, collaboration, learning all gone.
Too many in the USA see politics as a chess game in which any winning move is smart. Too few see how this undermines the feeling of facing big issues together. Thus trust in outcomes is lost and winning moves by the other side as aggressive actions, rather than as just another approach to solve issues.
Am I helping overcome this? I fear not.
KootFloris3 days ago
@Andrew Olson And Gibberish? You keep applauding the people that rob you blind: https://medium.com/the-gentle-revolution/usa-united-states-of-abomination-cc3352cf3f32
(comment) This link is to an article listing many tricks the big corporations use to get richer at the cost of workers, people, environment.
Dumpty Humpty3 days ago
By the way I’m a independent and definitely not a socialist I’m a business owner with several employees. The American economy is rigged for big companies also called corporate welfare.
(comment) Dumpty is back for a moment. What he says should worry Andrew, if he was really interested.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty You just showed your hand with your comment. And your true nature. You cannot fool us. We know how you think. We have seen your playbook before.
(comment) Andrew even thinks Dumpty must be lying, because in his world view Dumpty as business owner is impossible.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty To late to change your story now, numpty. Independents don’t support the Soviet Union. And independents aren’t pushing Sanders agenda.
KootFloris3 days ago
@Andrew Olson Read Humpty Dumpties latest comment…from a business owner. You’re insane to never address the facts presented, always moving to a new garbage talking points (most homeless in democratic cities: yeah, many fled totally unlivable red states) from the propaganda handbook 2.01 Your nitpicking on Michael Moores choice to a go a US hospital says it all. On the big issues you have no ground. None. And Hollywood socialists aren’t making a difference, but even they, in the safe mansions and elitist bubble have a clearer understanding than you, about the underlaying issues destroying your country. So keep the self righteous self deception going and good luck with that. Bye.
(comment) I don’t explain why Michael Moores choice is nitpicking. To me that makes complete sense. But as said I live in a different bubble, so for someone in another bubble, my comment does nothing to revoke the idea that Moore is a left wing rich guy.
Adam Hauck3 days ago
@Andrew Olson W oversaw the largest expansion in government in recent history when he added the bloat of DHS to the budget. I’m struggling to remember the questioning and backlash W faced for his desire to greatly expand the government. Face it: if a person is ok with expanding the government with DHS (which gave us ICE, and increased NSA surveillance, and so many other programs that infringe upon our civil liberties), but not ok with eliminating the oligarchy by having the government take over as the single payer for a private healthcare system, or subsidizing tuition for higher education at public colleges, universities, and trade schools, or spearheading a large-scale and fundamental transformation of our energy and transportation systems, then that person is just a straight up nationalist/status quo apologist. They’re using the cost of Bernie’s programs as a straw man argument, because at the end of the day allowing the current private insurance scheme to continue, allowing the fossil fuel industry to continue as they have, or allowing the student debt bubble to explode will cost us far more down the road than what it would cost to fix these systems.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Adam Hauck Who took out the loans to go to college? Me? Bush didn’t guarantee a government job to anybody who wants one. Anyone who thinks Sanders will transform society, has not read a history book. Which is most of his supporters. With many being students who want the free stuff. If fossil fuels were removed tomorrow: the world’s economies would collapse.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Adam Hauck More Bernie bros saying the parts they are thinking. https://www.dailywire.com/news/sanders-campaign-rocked-again-more-staff-caught-advocating-violence-against-opponents
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@KootFloris And Sanders has real socialism. With the thugs to go with it. https://www.dailywire.com/news/sanders-campaign-rocked-again-more-staff-caught-advocating-violence-against-opponents
(comment) This is a new and very worrying talking point. Bernies followers are seen as a gang comparable with brown shirts in Nazi Germany. One old white influencer even said on national TV he was afraid to be executed when Bernie would come into power! So people react of this bullshit news, as if it’s real. Quite a few are now starting to use it as an excuse to prepare ‘self defense’ or even shout all socialists must be shot, because otherwise they’d all be send to gulags.
Adam Hauck3 days ago
@Andrew Olson Plus, yeah Bush didn’t GUARANTEE jobs for everyone, but he sure as shit created a whole buncha dem gubmint jerbs for people to get at ICE, border patrol, TSA, etc. I dont see those jobs, or DHS for that matter, going away any time soon. Ah, W — the great permanent government job creator! Thanks for contributing to the welfare state!
Adam Hauck3 days ago
@Andrew Olson so? Fat Donnie has unhinged whackadoodles at all of his rallies advocating for open civil war if he loses or gets removed from office. I just fail to see how you can point this out without being a hypocrite.
Andrew Olson3 days ago
@Adam Hauck You are an idiot. Sanders has not even commented on this stuff. Trump or the people who work for him have not advocated burning cities, setting people on fire, putting people in gulags or taking their property. Spoken like a true socialist scumbag.
Andrew Olson2 days ago
@asdf They don’t want a crazy socialist in the whitehouse
Andrew Olson2 days ago
@Adam Hauck Imbecile, jobs to stop criminals, jobs to stop terrorists, jobs to stop fence jumpers. Are real jobs. Not the idiot idea crazy Sanders has.
Andrew Olson2 days ago
@Dumpty Humpty More Sanders workers talking about violence https://youtu.be/4zpCVM0delQ
Andrew Olson2 days ago
@Adam Hauck Still no comment from Sanders on his workers advocating violence. https://youtu.be/4zpCVM0delQ
(comment) Project Veritas has been known for faking videos. I can’t imagine any Bernie followers calling themselves Marxist Leninist. But in some right winged minds they so much are convinced they do, that this video makes sense to them. I see a deliberate hoax.
David Mayberry1 day ago
I think it’s important to ask those questions if you want the minority vote.
David Mayberry1 day ago
@KootFloris they are and should be normal everywhere. That’s exactly why I get so sick of defending this exact point to supposed Democrats, they say he’s “too radical” and I’ve been saying for years what’s radical about any of it? It’s common sense, I swear if we didn’t have public schools for K — 12 today people including Democrats would be saying it’s “radical” to ask for public schools, I guess asking for any human service that betters the lives of millions that we don’t currently have already is “radical”. Really they’ve all just been brainwashed by mainstream media.
David Mayberry1 day ago
@Andrew Olson no he doesn’t, you sound so incredibly ignorant right now. Keep spouting those Fox news talking points though, keep being a mouthpiece for the billionaires whos only goal is not losing a nickel while keeping the majority of the country below the poverty line.
David Mayberry1 day ago
@lurocp8 yeah every civilized nation has a version of universal coverage, but it’s impossible here. Why aren’t you worried about the hundreds of billions going towards the military industrial complex each and every year?
David Mayberry1 day ago
@Enlightened Rod good job mate, good job.
lurocp81 day ago
@David Mayberry You people are so naive. There’s relative peace around the world because of the US’ military. There’s a saying that if the Palestinians would lay down their weapons, there’d be peace in the West Bank. If Israel laid down their weapons, there’d be genocide. Same thing holds true for the US. If the US defunded their military, the whole world would be in rubble.
David Mayberry1 day ago
@lurocp8 you’re just helping to point out how bad the rest of the country is doing, if the top 1% is only making 440k how can you argue they’re “middle class”? Shouldn’t people in the 50th percentile be “middle class” not the lowest earners of the top 1%? That statement just helps to prove the huge wealth gap problem in this country.
David Mayberry1 day ago
@lurocp8 who said it was America’s job to act as world police?
lurocp81 day ago
@David Mayberry That’s just a ridiculous mindset and nothing but pure envy. What does it matter what someone else has? Let’s assume there are 10 people in the world and they all make $100/yr. Now 2 people create some new service and they both make $500/yr and the other 8 people make $125/yr. You people don’t see or care that the EVERYONE is better off. The ONLY thing you care about is that 2 people make more than the other 8 combined. You think if we just take money away from the 2 people so that they don’t make so much, that everything will be better. It’s just petty jealousy and it does nothing for anyone.
lurocp81 day ago
@David Mayberry No one said it was the US’ job. The country with the strongest military makes the rules. That’s the way everything in the world works. If you have to ask someone to let you be in charge, you’re not capable of being in charge.
David Mayberry1 day ago
@lurocp8 what’s ridiculous is your misleading 420k 1% number, that’s the “threshold” but the actual everage income of the 1% (which is much more important) is actually 1.3 million.
David Mayberry1 day ago
@lurocp8 there also isn’t an unlimited amount of currency, so if you have 5 people holding and banking 99% of the US currency there isn’t much left for the others so your analogy is shit.
David Mayberry1 day ago (edited)
@lurocp8 we’re not “in charge” and that mentality is why the world is beginning to (or already does) hate us.
lurocp81 day ago
@David Mayberry People that earn $32,000/yr, Globally, are in the top 1%. But of course, the average Bernie supporter couldn’t give a rat’s ass about the rest of the world making less than them. The ONLY thing they care about is stealing money from someone that has more than they do. Not in a million years would a Bernie supporter give up THEIR OWN money to help actual poor people, like the billion or so that don’t have clean drinking water. They only want more shit for themselves.
lurocp81 day ago
@Dumpty Humpty Denmark’s President has repeatedly stared Denmark has nothing to do with Democratic Socialism. Democratic Socialism nonsensical political jargon used to sway gullible little kids who have no concept of how an economy grows.
KootFloris1 day ago
@David Mayberry Totally on point. I’m shocked how strong and deep the propaganda goes. Just utter the word ‘socialism’ and some self convinced dogs go fully Pavlov on you, barking words like Marxist, Venezuela and or Stalin. That automatic response shows how unfree they are in their thinking really. If only we could make that clear to them.
David Mayberry1 day ago
@KootFloris for that reason alone I wish Bernie didn’t self identify as a “democratic socialist” I wish he’d call it direct democracy or something even if it’s no different. Many Americans are just allergic to the word socialism.
lurocp81 day ago
@David Mayberry How could you possibly be so dumb to think that goods and services were finite? Do you think that computers and cell phones and cars have been around since 100 B.C.? I don’t even know what to say. I just know that I’m going to screenshot what you said and post it on my Facebook page for people to see that someone actually believes that there isn’t an unlimited amount of goods and services that can be produced. You actually said “currency isn’t unlimited.”
(comment) Ah, David is also American and believes he lives on an infinite planet. That is only possible if we all live fully cradle to cradle.
lurocp81 day ago
@David Mayberry Understanding that income is unlimited is not Economics 101, it’s Economics 00000000000000000000000000000000000001. They teach that concept in middle school.
Andrew Olson1 day ago
@David Mayberry I don’t know what you are saying, no he doesn’t, to. But you, like Sanders the lazy socialist. Don’t get to take people’s money because you want it. It doesn’t matter if they they have $100 trillion. It is not yours. You know nothing about economics, just like the loon Sanders. Name one person who has been made poor because of a billionaire? You are a dipshit of the high order.
(comment) It seems Andrew missed the point of many Americans becoming homeless, died because of lack of funds to pay medicine, or never could afford to go to court battling a big company that ripped them off.
David Mayberry1 day ago (edited)
@Andrew Olson uh I pay taxes, sorry if I think billionaires should do the same. And obviously if you don’t think a small fraction of people owning the vast majority of a countries currency is a economic problem you’ve shown the world your grasp of economics. Plus I don’t want to “take” anyone’s money, I want everyone to pay their fair share, I want to cut wasteful spending, and I want the loopholes and buyoffs that keep laws nice and cushy for billionaires closed. I want a system that works for the majority not only the rich minority, they’ll still be plenty rich. It’s so funny how people like you act like the middle class flourishing is somehow going to hurt the country.
Andrew Olson1 day ago
@David Mayberry Dopey, to suggest billionaires don’t pay tax makes you as stupid as Ocasio Cortez. Who do you think pays the bulk of income tax?
KootFloris1 day ago
@David Mayberry Here’s is a fun idea: Call the Trumpists Marxists. The logic is sound: They still live in the Cold War propaganda freak out mode. They love the following: One truth allowed. One party rules. Follow the glorious leader. I bet there’s more. All what Stalin loved.
lurocp81 day ago
@David Mayberry You don’t EVER get to criticize anyone about their grasp of Economics if you think currency is finite. You’re a punchline for being that clueless.
lurocp81 day ago
@KootFloris Your “logic” is so flawed that all you have is the usual attempts at smearing people. You can’t make a fact-based argument because the facts are not on your side. Plus, you don’t know them.
Andrew Olson1 day ago
@KootFloris Another moronic comment. You are on a roll.
(comment) It seems humor isn’t appreciated. And yes, I admit I sought to trigger people like Luro and Andrew, yet strangely they see a smear, where I see a provoking overlap.
Andrew Olson1 day ago
@David Mayberry Why are democrats against charter schools?
(comment) Finally an open question! Wow. But by now, who trusts it as such?
Andrew Olson1 day ago
@David Mayberry You could call it candy. But we still know what motivates Sanders and his supporters, anti capitalism.
Andrew Olson1 day ago
@KootFloris No, people know what Sanders has said. And the history of socialism. Why do you think every country in the world is not socialist, there must be a reason?
KootFloris1 day ago
@Andrew Olson Of course there’s a reason. 1. I agree it had weaknesses. 2. The USA and Nato killed it where they could. Check the Venezuela blockade by the USA, or Cuba still harassed. So they never have a fair chance. 3. Turns out a healthy mix works best!!! Some Western European countries like Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Netherlands always score very high on aspects as happiness, quality of education, unions, healthcare, worklife balance, etc. Why? Because they all have socialist aspects integrated in their system. A bigger government and higher tax doesn’t need to be a problem, when that government has good intentions. That higher tax is used for great cheap healthcare (the state buys medicines as a collective, pressuring the companies to low prices, so everyone pays way way less for medicine) (I recently had a free ambulance ride, free doctors visits) cheap great education, better work protection, better infrastructure, better public transport (I have no drivers license , a bike and lots of cheap train rides) etc. I never vote socialists in my country, but are very happy they are a healthy part of the spectrum. It’s not either D or R, but And And.
Willie Hardiman1 day ago
@KootFloris we gotta start somewhere and he’s a GREAT 1st step.
Andrew Olson1 day ago
@KootFloris Sanders is a socialist. You cannot compare homogenous, small European countries to the US. The US has 320 million more people than Finland. And is 25 times bigger. We have seen from those under Sanders what they want the US to be. Don’t blame Cuba’s and Venezuela’s problems on the US. They are run by terrible people.
(comment) The history of CIA meddling in those countries seems to have escaped the notice of many. But of course, “You must see ‘our’ nation is the ‘good’ people and those others, they’re bad. We cannot be blamed for their fate.” The irony of such thinking will not be well received in any country where US bombs dropped, or regime change wars were incited.
Also now the comments start to be really rambling. I start answering and then realize while typing I’m becoming insane in hoping my effort may make a difference, let alone matters.
KootFloris23 hours ago
@Andrew Olson Oh man, what a fallacies!! Finland is way smaller, so has also way less people to pay for that. Size is not the issue. It is money in politics and corruption. About Cuba and Venezuela, it seems terms like Regime change wars, CIA interventions in foreign countries are new to you. Go learn. That the mentioned countries have terrible leaders doesn’t take away the US intervention and meddling facts as false. Bernie also isn’t a real socialist (nor is Europe) (nor are we homogenous any more). I trust that if he rules for 4 years, some good things can be done and if bad, hey, in four years new elections. If there’s a coupe, then expect Trump to run the USA as an autocrat. Bernie has been consistent and reliable all his career. If you vote out of fear over what he may do, know that that fear of socialism is implanted by decades of anti socialism propaganda in the USA. Yes, you are way less free than you think. You defend the lie you’ve been told to believe. Not even question it. Questioning something is the start of freedom. Goodluck.
Andrew Olson22 hours ago
@KootFloris Sanders is a socialist. He praised the Soviet Union, Cuba and breadlines. How many blacks and Hispanics live in Finland? How many black and Hispanic gangs are in Finland? Does Finland have the third on their doorstep? Why do you think that socialism has failed every time it has been tried?
Andrew Olson22 hours ago
@KootFloris Finland is 96% white. Ethnic Finns are 91%. Other Europeans are 5%
(comment) Why does he only mention Finland here? Ah! 20% of the Dutch population is of foreign origins, most from Turkey, Morocco, Poland, Suriname.
Here I got out. They started to repeat the same arguments, like “Only with fewer people is free healthcare affordable. Bernie once praised breadlines.” Does this imply that the USA has large and dangerous groups of minorities that would ruin socialism once implemented?? I can’t follow this anymore.
My Conclusion
Trust me this same ‘dialogue’ is happening all over Youtube, Facebook, Reddit and others. Repeating of talking points, insulting, conclusions from the hip.
After this I decided to write to following three articles.
- How to do better online dialogues? Whether you’re left or right, engaging online with effect is a difficult task. Here are some online talking tips.
- The deeper roots of the Left vs Right trap that holds so many imprisoned. And some advice what needs to happen to get out of it. And how we might change politics due to that.
- How the news has become a deep propaganda drug altering minds. In the discussion above you already see that people speak from very different realities. How is that possible? What does it bring us? And ways out.
