Building off the Beaten Path in Asia — with Metatheory COO Adam Bao
Hi folks, welcome back! Today Sandy Diao (Director of Growth at Descript) joins us to guest host and interview Adam Bao, founder of The Harbinger and COO at Metatheory. Since 2017, Adam took the path less traveled to explore business model innovation and venture deals across China, Taiwan, and SEA. Adam double clicks into startups he evaluated alongside Hurst Lin (Cofounder at Sina and DCM Ventures) during the Covid years. It’s a roving discussion that highlights the importance of unconventional thinking and competitive differentiation across categories ranging from e-bikes to K12 dance networks to selling upcycled trash products. Adam also describes his early entry into the world of Web3, building games + new IPs at Metatheory with Kevin Lin (Twitch cofounder) and the team. To date, Metatheory has launched the DuskBreakers IP collection, raised $24m+ from lead investors including a16z, Pantera, Dragonfly, Breyer Capital, Sfermion, and Merit Circle, and is currently building out its flagship games. Finally, Adam shares hard earned lessons about scaling high quality teams and organizations, and how he manages (and leverages) chronic pain as a lever.
Show Notes
(00:00:00) — An early education on the value of differentiation
(00:04:40) — Insights into Chinese startups at Shunwei Capital (Xiaomi CEO Lei Jun’s fund)
(00:07:35) — Building out The Harbinger podcast and network
(00:14:05) — Generating 100m+ views for The Harbinger while on Chinese dating show 非诚勿扰 (If You Are The One)
(00:18:33) — Segue to Segway-Ninebot (Loomo, delivery robots, and e-scooters!)
(00:22:42) — Launching Beam, Asia Pacific’s largest shared micro-mobility company
(00:27:32) — Moving to Taiwan during COVID, sniffing out unconventional opportunities and hidden gems with Hurst Lin (Cofounder at Sina and DCM Ventures)
(00:41:28) — Taiwan the “recycling kingdom” and a business in upcycling trash!
(00:47:52) — K12 dance education to power the next vertical social network?
(00:53:03) — But what about manufacturing opportunities in Taiwan?
(00:56:53) — The wacky world of games, Web3, and building with Kevin Lin (Twitch cofounder)
(01:06:32) — Lessons learned while building Metatheory & DuskBreakers
(01:11:53) — Managing chronic pain and finding strength in vulnerability
Edited by Ryan Li;
[Editor’s note: this interview has been edited for clarity. The opinions expressed in this article are Adam’s own and do not reflect the views of Metatheory Inc, DCM Ventures, or Shunwei Capital]
An ABC out in China
Let’s dive right in. You took quite an unconventional path. You set your sights on Asia and decided to drop everything and move there. Tell me a little bit about that experience.
Adam: Yeah, it was certainly an adventure. In 2016, I traveled to China with Blippar, the company I worked for at the time, which was a pioneer in AR. We met with some of the large tech companies in China, including Alibaba and Tencent, and I was struck by the energy, hard working people, and hunger to build new products and businesses. They were commercially minded and particularly innovative on building business models, and it was clear that I needed to be out there.
As an ABC (American born Chinese), I realized I might have an edge in differentiating myself from others in the US. Instead of relying on limited and subjective insights from news sources such as the Wall Street Journal or New York Times, I could use my native-level English proficiency and decent grasp of Mandarin to observe and learn about China firsthand, and share my insights with a global audience in English.
In 2017, I decided to drop everything and go out to Asia to learn, build, and invest, treating it as my MBA. I focused on developing a network, meeting great people, and looking for untapped opportunities and arbitrage.
I learned early on that it’s important to differentiate oneself, whether personally or in business. There will always be someone smarter, harder working, or more ruthless, so it doesn’t pay off to compete in the same way as others. This lesson was reinforced when I won a state championship in triple jump in high school by combining speed, leaping ability, technique, and balance. Throughout my life, I’ve applied this lesson to personal growth, career, investment, and building various products and business models.
Overall, going out to China made a lot of sense to me because it was a way to differentiate myself and develop a unique position that could be built upon over time.
It sounds like you honed this unfair advantage and went to Asia to build on that. So what did you decide to do from there?
Adam: In my twenties, I took the plunge to relocate to China and explore potential opportunities. Although I was uncertain about what these opportunities might entail, I knew that gaining insight into China’s startup ecosystem required working closely with local founders and VCs. Chinese investors possess superior knowledge about the latest trends, startups, founders, and business models, which is not readily available in the US. So I figure if I want to learn about what’s going on in China, why should I be reading about stuff here in the us?
Fortunately, I knew a VP at Shunwei Capital who understood my interests and unique value proposition. I was fluent in English, had decent Chinese, understood the US market, and could potentially help their portfolio companies that had global aspirations. I was able to contribute by providing insights into global companies and trends, which benefited their portfolio companies by helping them sell their products overseas.
Chinese companies often lack expertise in branding, marketing, and business development, which is where I came in to provide my expertise. Although Chinese apps may not fit a global market, physical products were more easily sold abroad. Through this experience, I was fortunate enough to be exposed to some of the best founders and investors in China.
And it sounds like the work that you did there naturally evolved into what you ended up building with the Harbinger. Tell me a little bit more about that piece, because you mentioned that your original entry point into this was thinking about creating content.
Adam: The initial drive for my interest in China was personal curiosity due to the rapid innovation happening there. I wanted to learn more, and I thought that other executives, founders, and investors in the US would want to as well. In the venture business, building a conventional product or startup is unlikely to succeed due to intense competition, so everyone is trying to find an edge. I found it difficult for someone in the US to learn about China, as they would have to be out there and know the language or have connections. However, it was more accessible for me because of my language capabilities, family, and friends in China. I wanted to share my insights with a global audience who may not have the same access.
Before getting to The Harbinger, I want to talk about Shunwei. Shunwei Capital has an incredible team, great culture, and really smart, kind investors led by Lei Jun, the founder and CEO of Xiaomi. Xiaomi sells smartphones as its primary product but also sells other hardware products from air purifiers to vacuum robots to TVs and home appliances. The Xiaomi ecosystem invests early in some of the best companies building these hardware products and supports them from a product and design perspective, and ultimately pushes them through their sales and marketing channels. If a company enters the Xiaomi ecosystem and is supported by Xiaomi and Shunwei, it’s basically guaranteed a valuation of $100–500 million, this is well known in China. Shunwei Capital, an independent VC fund, also offers additional perspectives for Lei Jun to understand new trends, what’s driving various developments and business models, and what kind of founders are out there. It was hugely beneficial for him.
Before Harbinger, I created a podcast for Shunwei called Shunwei VC Podcast, where I interviewed the best founders and investors who shared their views and insights on what’s happening in China. These were all unicorn founders. I wanted to create value for the broader ecosystem and generate utility for everyone involved. It was a way to accelerate my learning and build my network.
As we’re telling the story of The Harbinger, a really fun anecdote that I want to make sure we don’t miss here, is the time that you started to think about growing The Harbinger brand and a really fun experience that you had of being on national Chinese television through a dating show. Can you tell us how you turned that experience into basically a growth opportunity for the Harbinger brand.
Adam: It was fun! When I was fundraising for The Harbinger and managed to successfully fundraise. I had committed capital from a number of folks that came onto the show, as they knew me well and were supportive. However, I ultimately decided not to take the money because a content-driven platform (starting with a podcast) doesn’t require much capital. It didn’t make sense to raise $2 million at the time to build a podcast.
As part of that effort, I went on a dating show called 非诚勿扰 (If You Are The One), which is the largest dating show in China and has been around for over 10 years. I did it for fun, and I wore a t-shirt with the Harbinger logo instead of the typical dress shirt or suit they ask you to wear on the show. I just pretended that the clothes they provided didn’t fit. The TV crew asked about the bird logo… and I told them that it definitely wasn’t for product placement.
It went well, and I ended up being one of the winners on the show. There was this “winners” trip to Thailand, which the show wanted to record as well. I skipped it ha, things were busy at Segway Robotics. It was all just for fun, and I’m not one for attention. I didn’t do it because I wanted attention, but because I thought it would be beneficial for The Harbinger.
Interestingly, the show had a lot of appeal with parents and older generations, such as my Asian American friends’ moms and my own family. They found it hilarious and enjoyed watching dating shows to see their children find significant others.
I imagine that this was actually a really cool cultural immersion or experience for you. I mean, being on national television in China, I think that at the time that was expected to see about anywhere between 30 to four 40 million viewers per episode. So just the reach of that is mind boggling.
Adam: It was really fun. I’m not fully fluent in Chinese… so I was a bit apprehensive going in. Oftentimes the female contestants will push hard to get a better sense of the guy, see how he responds under pressure. Despite my concerns, it ended up being a great experience. The episode had over a hundred million views, which was really exciting and I’m glad that I did it.
I don’t think I will ever do something like that again, but it was fun while it lasted. Hilarious clips from the show here.
That’s fun. So it sounds like you weren’t able to take that girl on a date because things got busy with Segway Robotics. Let’s use this as a moment to transition into your experience there. So, Adam, I remember when we first met you were leading growth at Segway Robotics, what was the story of actually how you got involved in Segway?
Adam:I remember that moment clearly, and I’m grateful to have become good friends with you Sandy. Along the way, I’ve learned so much from you.
Segway Robotics is a department under Segway-Ninebot. Most people have heard of Segway, the American company with those two-wheelers. They wanted to change the world. However, they were acquired by a Chinese company called Ninebot, which has similar products, including hoverboards.
Ninebot acquired Segway for various reasons, primarily to expand its global business. The combined entity started to diversify its product line beyond two-wheelers and hoverboards to include go-karts, mobile robots, and delivery robots. I began working with them when I was sent over by Shunwei, and Segway Robotics was one of the portfolio companies for Shunwei and Xiaomi.
At the time, the company was selling two premier lines of products. One was a consumer robot called Loomo, which was like a hoverboard with a robotic head that had computer vision capabilities. The other product was a delivery robot. The latter made more sense because China has a massive delivery industry with millions of food and package deliveries made every day. For instance, Meituan Dianping, one of the biggest companies in this space, makes roughly 40 million food and package deliveries every day, which it needed to subsidize (something like 5 RMB per delivery at the time).
Using robots to replace human delivery workers and decrease the reliance on them is an excellent idea that aligns with China’s growth area of tech development, robotics, and automation. The company attracted attention and raised substantial amounts of money. While we worked on selling the consumer robot via Indiegogo, the robotics business is just a small piece of their overall offering, which includes not just delivery robots but also scooters.
Today, many of the Segway Ninebot products are sold by Indiegogo and similar channels where crowdfunding has become a sustainable revenue source. However, the robotics business is overshadowed by other products such as scooters, including electric scooters.
In 2017, in addition to being like a golden era for IOT, it was also the golden era for the emergence of a lot of these last mile solutions that came to market like Bird and Lime.
Adam: Yes, there was an explosion of activity and investments, particularly in the scooter sharing industry. However, this type of business was highly capital and operationally intensive, making it difficult for many companies to succeed. Despite this, Segway Ninebot emerged as the winner in the market by supplying most of the e-scooters to the operators. By 2018, the company generated an astounding $500 million per year and was able to go public in China. As someone who was lucky enough to witness this firsthand while being in Asia, it was incredible to see a company grow so rapidly and generate such significant revenue.
As chance would have it, one of my college friends, named Alan, who had been a general manager for Uber in Southeast Asia for several years, was also involved in this industry. At the time, he was working at a bike-sharing company called Ofo, which had raised hundreds of millions of dollars but was experiencing similar problems as other competitors in the space.
When we caught up in Beijing, Alan indicated that he was planning to move on from Ofo, and I suggested that he consider scooter sharing. I mentioned that Segway-Ninebot supplied most of the scooters for these companies and offered to help accelerate Alan’s access to them. Not long after, he left Ofo, launched Beam, which is similar to Bird and Lime but for the Asia Pacific market.
Beam carved out a swathe of business in Asia, particularly in Korea, Australia, New Zealand, and has grown into a seemingly healthy and robust business. Today, it is one of the biggest and best-managed micro-mobility companies, is EBITDA positive, and secured the licenses necessary to operate legally in the markets they serve. Despite the difficulties of the industry, I respect Alan and his team for building and excelling at such an operationally intensive business, and I wish them well.
This story highlights the unexpected connections and outcomes that can arise when you go out into a market and start executing, developing relationships, and helping people. While the dots may not always connect looking forward, interesting things can happen when you take action and make things happen.
So it’s really interesting that Alan was able to pinpoint a market where he had pre existing expertise and was able to think about that a little bit more heads on with scooters as one of the products.
I’m curious whether or not this was one of your first encounters in thinking about a career in venture capital, and then where did you take that conversation? How did it impact what you ended up doing from there?
Adam: When it comes to venture capital, it is all about building stuff. There are builders and operators who are supported by the VCs who invest and fund them. I was exposed to this early on when I worked on Blippar in 2014, and got a taste for it. Once you get the bug of building things, it becomes a part of you forever. When helping Alan with Beam, for me, it was a continuation of what I had been doing for a while. I find it energizing to help other founders and investors and to connect people.
China aside, I also spent a number of years in Taiwan since 2020. I initially went there because of COVID-19. Interestingly, Taiwan was very safe throughout most of 2020 and 2021. I initially planned to stay for two weeks, but it turned into nearly two years.
Uncovering Hidden Gems In Taiwan with Hurst Lin
So tell us a little bit more about that period of time. When Covid hit in 2020, you were based in China, sounds like you thought you were gonna just spend a few months in Taiwan and it ended up staying for two years, I believe. What were you doing in Taiwan and was that a period of time when you were figuring out, or thinking about how you continued to build your career in working with some of these companies as an investor?
Adam: Taiwan presented a tough challenge for a while because the Covid situation was unclear. Nobody knew how the virus was going to develop or how long it would last. When I first arrived in Taiwan, it felt strange because I had been uprooted from China, and I didn’t have many friends or family in Taiwan. However, I was fortunate to meet some people who had a massive impact on my life and thinking.
One of those people was Hurst Lin, GP at DCM Ventures who founded DCM China and was previously the co-founder and CEO at SINA. Hurst is an incredible investor and builder, and he’s massively influenced my thinking. He has led investment deals in defining companies like Kwai, 58.com among many others. I was lucky to meet him and start working with him in Taiwan.
I remember having brunch with Hurst in the early days, and he asked me what was interesting and different about Taiwan. He took out a notebook and started taking notes as I talked. This left quite an impression on me because he’s such an accomplished guy, yet he shows respect and open-mindedness when it comes to learning from everyone. He also had a unique fashion style, wearing brightly colored clothing, red-rimmed glasses, and dyed hair.
He looked for situations that were different, similar to Peter Thiel’s school of thought described in his book “Zero to One”. Thiel’s most compelling concept was that conflict arises not from differences, but from similarities and competition over scarce resources that can erode profits. As a result, it is crucial to identify irregularities and ways to achieve incomplete or no competition.
These monopolies tend to originate in small, emerging or niche markets where one can establish a position of strength and gain strategic advantages such as scale, network economies, or switching costs. This approach was evident in Hurst’s case as well, and it is unclear how he came up with it, whether through reading a book, being close to Peter Thiel, or discovering it himself. He seemed to have a knack for spotting unique opportunities.
During our conversation, Hurst asked me about my observations regarding what is interesting in Taiwan and what the country is good at. We both agreed that Taiwan has a strong manufacturing base, particularly in ODMs, OEMs, and chip manufacturing, where they excel in producing goods at lower costs and with greater efficiency. However, the startup market in Taiwan is quite different, especially when compared to the US and China, where the market is relatively small overall.
Compared to China or the US, Taiwan does not have as much local capital to work with, which means that local companies often have to go global to expand. Furthermore, many local investors and companies prefer to invest in production lines because they can see the profit. This lack of startup success and exits means that there is not as much recycling of cash back into the ecosystem, unlike in China or the US.
Despite these challenges, there are still interesting and different things to look for in Taiwan. For instance, consumer and lifestyle products have potential and global resonance, as Taiwan has a strong Japanese international influence, having been colonized by Japan in the past. Additionally, high quality Taiwan native products such as pineapples, mangoes, quality teas, and even alcohols could be worth exploring. Bubble Tea, Kavalan whiskey, and Din Tai Fung soup dumplings all originated in Taiwan!
Opportunities in ocean tech and logistics might be relevant, given that two of the world’s largest shipping carriers and one of the largest fishing fleets are based in Taiwan. And so on and so forth.
There’s so much to unpack there. It seems that what you’re pulling out here is that Taiwan is actually a great cultural exporter.
It’s fascinating that even though you have this background in technology products, and that’s primarily the era you were looking at, you started to take some of those lessons around, for instance, looking for some natural monopoly opportunities and looking at a bit of a different set of industries when you were spending time in Taiwan.
Adam: One should keep an open mind in venture. Also, there are certain things that seem obvious, but then as you dig deeper, realize that something seemingly differentiated may not be venture backable. While many interesting businesses can generate returns and profit, not all of them are relevant for early stage venture.
Let’s take e-bikes as an example. They were prevalent during Covid, and you may have come across products made by Vanmoof, which are beautiful but expensive, costing several thousand dollars per bike. In the years leading up to and during Covid, Vanmoof generated around 50 million of revenue per year. Many of their customers were in Europe, where biking behavior is common, and there are certain tax credits that make purchasing an e-bike cheaper than other transportation methods.
During Covid, there was more demand for e-bikes when people wanted to move around outdoors. People preferred biking to going to a club or other forms of transportation. There were several companies trying to do it, some of them were spinouts from larger manufacturers, and some of them were even scooter companies that were expanding along the value chain. Several companies in this category were raising large rounds.
We looked at that space, and while it was pretty interesting, we ultimately didn’t make an investment. For venture, you’re looking for things that have extreme scale that potentially grow very, very quickly. But once you get to a certain level of the business, then the marginal costs get very slim and you can generate outsize returns. You also have to think about what it takes to generate return X number of times during X time period. So E-Bikes were pretty cool, but it was hardware heavy, and there was a potential concern around the size of that market. Is it a COVID driven pump? Valuations were already so high.
Hurst was very, very discerning and not prone to rush. If something doesn’t make sense, if he doesn’t get it, he won’t pull the trigger. He needs to truly understand it, have conviction and ideally, the investment or the company needs to be fairly cheap. That left an impression on me because like other companies that have raised a lot of money during COVID at high valuations but are hurting badly now — what are you going to do? Can you raise at a down round? How does that impact equity holders? Because they have such a high valuation to support, does that constrain them on direction or actions they could have taken otherwise?
Too much capital (and high valuation) is not necessarily a good thing, oftentimes it can be very harmful to the business.
Aside from e-Bikes, what were some of the other unique categories that you looked at?
Adam: One of the less traditional areas we explored was recycling and ESG in Taiwan, which is often referred to as the recycling kingdom. We searched for companies in Taiwan that fit that model, and one that stood out was Miniwiz.
Miniwiz founder, Arthur, is exceptional. He’s a structural engineer and an architect with top-notch training in this field. He’s Harvard-educated and bilingual, making him just the type of person to build a global business.
For me, when I looked into Miniwiz, I understood a bit more about the business and the fact that his team spent 15 years developing technology and certain processes that transform waste materials, whether plastic, metal, or glass, into more sustainable building materials, furniture, and products.
They have a database that’s freely available where there are 200 plus types of new recycled materials they created. That’s part of their business, but they also have a specialty ESG construction project business where they basically use their know-how and recycled materials to create structures, buildings, and renovations for clients.
The company has some reputable investors, including Jackie Chan, who likes Arthur a lot, and they’ve been generating revenue, cash flow and covering costs, but there’s not a ton of room for expansion. So I don’t think there’s, at least for me, a ton of potential for explosive growth relevant at that stage. But I do think the company is really interesting.
People probably don’t care about buying furniture or products made of trash. But if it’s driven by the ESG trend, what could be interesting here?
My hypothesis was that Miniwiz should sell its upcycle products to businesses instead of doing one-off construction or architectural projects. I did an analysis and surveyed friends in the US and China. It became clear that there is weak demand for buying these recycled products.There’s a Chinese expression 痛点不够痛 “the pain point is not painful enough”. My friends like Miniwiz design, and they might buy a product but only if it’s reasonably priced. They don’t want to pay up for recycled products, especially if they don’t look good.
The sustainability piece is secondary to things like design, quality, and price. Allbirds is a good example here; they highlight sustainability but it’s not the primary selling point. My thought was that Miniwiz should sell to businesses because companies care more about ESG. It generates positive PR, better stakeholder approval, and can curry favor with the government, resulting in carbon and tax benefits.
They should lean into the furniture and sound channels, such as hotels, offices, and developers. If executed well, they have a chance to create a solid business and bridge over to mass production or lower costs. At that point, when the business is sustainable and well-positioned, they can consider selling to customers. Just my own musings; haven’t looked at them in a while and wish them well.
It sounds like they had this core mission of utilizing recycled materials to solve a problem. And that line you shared around “the pain is not painful enough” really resonates with me. I think about when I’m in the mind of a consumer or when I’m actually buying products like Allbirds for instance. I don’t think that the problem I’m trying to solve there is that I wanna buy a pair of athletic shoes, right? And the sustainability angle on it is more like a feature that maybe makes me more likely to buy it rather than the problem that I’m actually solving first.
I think there is probably a segment of consumers that are different from me, but I hear what you’re saying on the consumer market there, and I really liked that idea you had of, well maybe you focus on businesses whose corporate imperative is to solve for that sustainability aspect of things.
Adam: The point is super relevant, not just for this business, but for many other products and businesses out there. There’s always something that drives the value utility of a product or a service. Usually it’s not three or four things, usually just one primary thing. For enterprise, you can have great salespeople and potentially excite them with five different features. But for consumers, the value prop needs to be obvious.
On that point, I noticed that many young people were dancing in public spaces near the Sun Yat Sen Memorial or the CK Memorial Center. It was really cool to see. They were just dancing at all hours.
Adam, I’ve totally seen that. When I walked around Taiwan, it was like 11PM once around a university, I think it was 台大 (TaiDa). I literally walked into a dance battle on a Tuesday night. So I’ve also observed this and I would actually love to learn a little bit more about your observations there.
Adam: Definitely. We want to see videos of Sandy dancing btw.
I remember I was having a conversation with one of my best friends from college — my friend Jim from Yale. Super smart guy. He’s been an ed tech product manager for over ten years. He ran product for AltSchool (changed name to Altitude Learning). We’d been talking about education, dance, and after I noticed that dance was so popular amongst Taiwanese youth, I just started thinking about opportunities. Does this mean something? Is this something that’s investible? Is it big enough? Is it too small?
So, my initial thought was that online dance education could be really relevant for folks in college or older demographics. Help them become influencers, and they may be incentivized to get really good because that way they can generate income. Maybe… It’s still very steep at the top.
But I think I was brainstorming for the wrong demographic because the more I noticed the young people dancing, I started thinking about K to 12. Is this a relevant education play? In the US and Taiwan, people love to dance, its culture. And what do students care about the most during those formative years? It’s usually about being cool and popular. Athletes are pretty cool and popular, and dancers are pretty cool and popular.
Dance ability could potentially even benefit college applications. Being able to dance could differentiate an applicant and help them apply to better colleges. During COVID, many people learned online and spent time in virtual worlds. In the US, 8–13-year-olds spend more time on Roblox than on YouTube or TikTok. What if we create a dance app for students with features such as dance videos for self-learning or live video classes where students can choose to be anonymous or show off their moves with a spotlight feature? The app could also include gamified features and leaderboards to build a natural community.
So, if this works and there’s an entry point to young people, there’s always a way to layer in other services too, whether it’s other extracurricular activities or financial literacy applications. Dance is niche overall compared to basketball or football. But a lot of these kids love to dance passionately, so it could be the case that one could build a dance community and once you have that, build and compound on top of tha. Who would have expected chess.com to generate $100m in ARR right?
Actually even some of the culture of young people wanting to learn to dance, to be cool and immerse themselves in a social setting online. I think it applies even beyond Taiwan, right? Like, looking at the US, probably one of the trends that continue to take over TikTok on a regular basis are dance trends. These are not just people who want to actually learn how to dance well, but people who just want to take some of these dance templates and have fun with it, build an audience, show other people, get some likes, get some engagement, et cetera.
So that actually makes a lot of sense.We touched on two really interesting consumer themes, but I actually want to go back to what people might assume to be a strategic advantage in being based in Taiwan, which is looking at manufacturing and semiconductors. Around the lines of thinking about manufacturing, were there any opportunities that you looked at as an investor?
Adam:I saw plenty of companies that were generating hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue, and they were somewhat profitable. Many of these companies are run by either the prior generation or they are handing on these businesses to their sons and daughters. Usually, they’re family-run businesses, and I think the play there is probably less venture, more private equity. If you find a bunch of these second-gen founders or executives, they may or may not want to run those companies. Many of them are doing pretty well, they’re wealthy, and they’re living their best life in Taiwan. They may not want to work as hard or run the companies that their parents built. So it could be a play to roll up some of these companies fairly cheaply and then bring on a management team that can better execute and operate.
So those are some of the things I came across, but didn’t really find too many venture-backable type concepts. However, when trying to find unconventional and different ideas, I looked to other examples and models from broader Southeast Asia, one of them being NFT-driven. I’d love to discuss that as well, because at Metatheory, we build games at the core while dabbling with web3 technology, AI, etc.
If I were to mention any such deal that Hurst did not understand, at least initially, it was in the NFT space. There was a company called NBA Top Shot, which is still around, and there’s also Axie Infinity that many of us have heard about. I just couldn’t get Hurst to look seriously at these companies at the time. He got it after persistent pushing over time and realized it all comes down to ownership. It’s the feeling of ownership, the feeling of “mine”, something that Li Jin from Variant Fund speaks to extremely well.
Hurst is very frank, he’s very straight. He has a good sense of business. And he goes, “Well, with NFTs, it’s about ownership. That’s the feeling you get. But there’s too much supply. There are all these art-based NFTs that don’t really matter because it’s so easy to make them. So, there’s going to be more supply than demand. What’s going to happen after a bit of a pump? Well, it’s probably going to fall off a cliff because there’s too much supply. That’s the case for most of these projects.” And he was super on point there immediately. I remember sharing with him Sky Mavis, the developer behind Axie Infinity because they were raising a Series A. I won’t share the details, but the valuation didn’t really make sense to me at the time. They raised much larger rounds later on and they were generating real revenue for a period. It grew at an exponential rate but has slowed down quite a bit, but they’re still doing some interesting things and have been a pioneer in the space.
The funny thing is that I just couldn’t get Hurst to bite. But learning about NFTs and Web3 games gave me a new perspective on innovation in the gaming space. And it led to Metatheory!
When I went to Taiwan, I was fortunate and met Hurst there, but I also met Kev (Kevin Lin, cofounder of Twitch). Kev left Twitch in the fall of 2020 to come to Taiwan, where we met. He’s a fellow Yale alum, and we got along really well. Initially, I was thinking about potentially backing Kevin on his next startup adventure because he’s an incredible operator. But as we hung out more, started sharing ideas, looked at some deals together… it just made sense to work together and build, along with a core team (have fond memories of those early days with Kev, Dave, JT, Nelson, Geers, Bernie)!
Entering the Metaverse
Let’s review your timeline. You went to Taiwan in 2020, and during Covid, individuals started using their personal devices more for digital entertainment and gaming. One industry that skyrocketed during this time was the consumer on-ramp into blockchain-powered experiences, as exemplified by the rise of games like Axie Infinity by Sky Mavis. In 2020, towards the end of the year, there was a hockey stick chart showing the revenue growth generated by the play-to-earn model for Axie Infinity. Can you share more about how you interpreted this moment and the early brainstorming stages in this relatively uncharted territory?
Adam: I’ve known about Axie Infinity since the beginning, before the boom in the market. Jeff was one of my college friends and fraternity brothers, just like Alan. He’d gone out to Vietnam to build his company called Sky Mavis, talk at events wearing shorts and shirts with a cute chibi creature on it. When it comes to NFTs, it made sense to me ultimately because it comes down to ownership. People like to own things, and people own baseball cards. Some of these baseball cards are worth a lot. What is the cost of a baseball card versus what people trade it for?
For NFTs, it’s very similar. Think of it as a digital collectible. Over time, if you have that primitive of NFTs, it gives you a sense of ownership over a digital thing like a digital asset. There’s a lot more that can be built around that. That I deeply believe in and feel.
Ultimately on a consumer side, it has to come down to a feeling. When it comes to NFTs for the right NFTs, whether it’s Axies, Bored Apes, DuskBreakers, and a few others, when you own that NFT, you feel ownership over that particular thing. Also, you feel that identity, that access to a community of folks that care about either games or products or other experiences that are built that are somehow tied back to the NFT.
To me, that was very apparent, and the world has changed a lot since several years ago, even during the crypto bull run. Many folks in the market have turned antagonistic towards crypto overall, including NFTs, and questioned how it creates value.
But it hasn’t changed my view here at all. At the core, you have to build great products and experiences that people want to come back to, but NFTs are a critical technology lever that can be utilized. That was clear to me very early, as crystal clear as it was several years ago.
In terms of Metatheory, we should go through this during another podcast and interview Kev (CEO of Metatheory), that would be pretty interesting. In the early days, it wasn’t necessarily an NFT game that we were trying to build. The initial thinking from the founders, it was more of how to build games, anime, cool content, and entertainment experiences. Some folks didn’t like or understand NFTs at first, which is fine. We eventually learned more and saw it as a way to innovate and differentiate game experiences.
We created an entertainment company enabled by technology, where NFTs are one lever, along with generative AI and others. The core is building games and IP. DuskBreakers is one of the first IPs with a story world, characters, art, lore, and games, web comics, visual novel experiences, and that’s what really matters. We need to develop something that people love. That’s how you achieve magic. If we can get people to feel a way similar to when we watch a Miyazaki movie or an anime, then that’s really creating magic. Once we get there, we can find ways to enhance that further by ownership and other mechanisms. That’s pretty much it at a high level in a nutshell.
No Pain No Gain
I bet part of contributing to that feeling of exhilaration and challenge is the space you’re in. It’s changed an incredible amount in the last few years. So, what are some lessons you’ve learned about building in the past years working on Metatheory?
Adam: Definitely a lot of lessons. Executing and helping to run a team of 50+ people at a certain valuation and level of cash burn daily gives new meaning to the term “eating glass.” For today, I’ll tease out a couple of learnings when it comes to people. Firstly, hire the best people, especially at an early stage startup, because time and attention are limited. The way to attain leverage is by hiring great people with a certain level of experience and who can take ownership.
I tend to not hire too many recent college grads because usually it takes a lot of training and hands-on management. Hiring people with a level of experience that have a positive attitude, can learn quickly and communicate well is very important. They can take ownership and eventually build teams around them. That’s the most effective way to do it. Ultimately, it’s better to have one person at a higher salary, let’s say $150–200k, who can take care of things and move the company forward than a team of four at $50k each that sucks up management time and may be prone to mistakes. Managing your energy is important in a startup, and my learning along the way is that I would rather hire one amazing person vs. several B players at lower salaries.
I wanted to ask, how have you made sense of the remote environment and do you hire remotely? How does that change the talent pool that you’re working with?
Adam: We do hire remotely. We have people around the world, mostly in the US and Taiwan. For certain roles, it’s beneficial to work together in person (e.g. our game designers and developers), especially in the early stages. Other roles like accounting or even people operations can be more distributed and remote. It varies by role and position. Generally, when it comes to remote work, there are pros and cons. There are benefits such as more flexibility and access to global talent, which is often cheaper. We experience that with our team members in Taiwan and other markets versus the Bay Area.
Sometimes, remote work can impair efficacy, especially in the early stages of a startup because it can lead to miscommunication and drama. Oftentimes when you want to pull your hair out, it’s not because of the amount of work or strategic decisions; it’s more so when people are upset at each other and causing drama or gossiping, which can amplify negatively. Then people start feeling bad and losing motivation.
So, I really look for people with a positive attitude, great cultural fit, and strong communication ability. At a remote company, having those qualities is more important than other types of aptitude, whether it’s technical or other. Any day of the week, I would take cultural fit over other types of aptitude. Working hard, getting things done, and trying to figure stuff out are part of doing a startup, but drama, unhappiness, and the impact on morale can be a killer for a business.
Besides the People Ops lessons, have you learned any other lessons about remote work during your time here?
Adam: It’s been great overall and has impacted me personally as well. I split my time between Taiwan, New York, and Boston to see my family more often.
Further, it’s been lighter on my neck. Since college, post sports injury, I’ve dealt with neck pain and a degenerative disc, where the spongy material between vertebrae has flattened, causing local pain and tightness. The at-home set up is very ergonomic.
Most people don’t know this, but I also deal with some motor tics (a mild form of Tourettes) that I’ve learned to control since childhood, but it does come at a cost. It causes tension and tightness in my neck and upper back, and exacerbates my typical neck pain. As a result, I don’t always enjoy being in front of a ton of people all the time, giving talks and such, as it takes energy and is currently not one of my superpowers or how I influence people. Need to constantly stretch out my neck to relax it.
As mentioned earlier, I’ve been on a dating show before. I did what it took to promote The Harbinger back in the day, join panels, whatever it is. But it’s not my preference. Over the years, I’ve found other ways to communicate, whether over 1-on-1s, smaller groups, zoom calls, etc. For me, it’s less so about being loud and flashing your face, it’s more about the quality of that connection and communication.
This is actually the first time I’ve publicly shared what I deal with. The pain and the apprehension that comes with it. I’ve gotten a lot better at managing it overall, but it’s still something I work on… would love to get to a point where I’ll just manage it more openly, massage my neck during meetings, take breaks, etc.
I know that logically people don’t care, right? If anything, if they knew, they’d probably be more supportive and have empathy, given the extra effort and pain I need to manage. It’s human nature to avoid unnecessary discomfort and embarrassment… though at the very least I should go to PT more often, but it’s usually the last thing I think about after a busy day.
Btw, when you asked me about learnings and lessons earlier… something else Hurst shared with me was insightful. There’s a concept in Chinese called 危机 (WeiJi), meaning “crisis” in Chinese, but the “Ji” actually means “opportunity.” So for me, in this case of dealing with pain and managing the tics and all that stuff, it comes with more strength and resiliency. After dealing with pain consistently, most other issues seem minor in comparison.
I think it also allows me to be empathetic. Being open-minded towards people who are different and recognizing the heart, fire, and drive that people have to succeed. I tend to be more vulnerable and I’ve found that it helps because it allows my team members to better connect with me.
When you’re vulnerable, you’re already naked, you’re not perfect, you’re trying your best, and it’s a lot easier to communicate and work together that way. At the end of the day, kindness matters. It impacts the team, their attitude at work, and the culture that manifests.
And, if I dare say, we have one of the strongest teams. At Metatheory, the Ops team is composed of awesome people. They work hard, they care. We have a good time. I have 99 problems that I tend to worry about, but this team is not one of them.
Adam, thank you for sharing your personal experience and the valuable lessons you learned from dealing with pain. Your personal growth has positively impacted our conversations and interactions. I also noticed you using a travel pillow around your neck, which is a great idea for staying comfortable while working at a desk or walking around. And fashionable to boot! Personally, I’m just such a huge fan of just your pursuit for impact and, and passion for both your personal and professional life.
Lastly, I’m curious, do you actually have a personal mission or a motto that embodies this journey that you’ve taken?
Adam: Generally, I firmly believe that what you put in is what you get out. No one can ever take away your intention and effort, so it’s important to keep showing up, treating others with respect and kindness — whether it’s team members, friends, community members, or investors. This reminds me of a quote that was shared during one of our all hands meetings, by Teddy Roosevelt, called “The Man (Person) in the Arena.”.
There are a lot of critics out there, whether they’re journalists, competitors, or investors. Most of them try to be supportive, but some are less patient than others. There are a lot of people that critique and criticize, but ultimately the credit belongs to the person who’s actually in the arena. Teddy described it as the person whose face is marred by sweat and blood, who strives and makes mistakes, who comes short, but at least has control over the effort. If that person fails, then at least he or she has tried. And that person’s place will never be with the folks that never knew victory or defeat. That really speaks to me and gets me thinking about how hard it is to build startups. It’s supposed to be really hard, and it’s something that we try to remind our team from time to time that things are not linear and sometimes it can take a long time to achieve product-market fit.
At the end of the day, just gotta keep doing that and keep showing up.
I think that’s a really great sentiment, and I think it really reflects how I’ve known you to always execute your way towards these unknown opportunities and really grasp them.
Well, thanks Adam. Thanks for diving deep with us on the Harbinger podcast today. It’s been an incredible conversation. Take care!
