S2E5: The Light We Carry by Michelle Obama
I got to read a lovely book and speak to an even lovlier guest, what more could one ask for?
Episode Summary
Our forever First Lady, Michelle Obama, has gifted us with a manual for living life well. In her new book, The Light We Carry: Overcoming in Uncertain Times, she discusses partnering well, overcoming fear, intergenerational politics, parenting and so much more.
Lauryn and Alice chat about all of their favourite bits and shamelessly plug the book club they run, Melanin Pages! If you’re interested in books by and about Black Women, check it out here:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melaninpagesbookclub/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y%3D
Eventbrite: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/o/melanin-pages-book-club-58924956443
Transcript
Lauryn 0:12
Hi. Hello. You’re listening to the Normal Golf Book Club. My name is Lauren, and I have Alice as my guest this week. How are you doing?
Alice 0:20
I’m, um, good, thank you. Having a chill.
Lauryn 0:23
Sunday days are perfect. Sundays, two Sundays make me understand why British people are very into tea. Because
Lauryn 0:33
I didn’t like tea as, like, a kid, and that was my mom’s thing. Every day. She was like, it’s like, tea time. And she forced my siblings and I to have tea and bread and butter at 04:00 p.m.. And I hated it my entire life. And now I’m the kind of grown up person who, like, very aggressively only drinks peppermint tea. She gets really upset if there’s no peppermint tea in a Saints riddle or Texaco mhm. And I need to sit down with peppermint tea. And maybe a book, maybe YouTube, probably YouTube on Sundays to prepare for Monday.
Alice 1:04
Sounds very wholesome. I think I only drink tea when it’s cold, so lots of winter cups of tea whilst I work or just sit in bed.
Lauryn 1:15
Do you have a favorite tea?
Alice 1:17
No, it varies. I try and have at least four options at all times.
Alice 1:25
Yeah. Oh, gray lemon and ginger, sometimes peppermint. Uh, yeah. Nothing too exciting.
Lauryn 1:34
And this will sound wonderfully boring to anyone who, I guess lives in the UK. But I discovered PG Tips, truly two weeks ago, and I'm like, this is fantastic. Literally two weeks ago. And I think it's the best thing ever.
Lauryn 1:50
I'm sure I had seen it on shelves in stores. Like, I've lived in the UK for five years. I'm sure I've seen it a million times. But just someone made it for me two weeks ago, and I was like, this is incredible.
Alice 2:00
They used to have these adverts on TV all the time.
Lauryn 2:04
Um.
Alice 2:06
I think in the adverts they used to have, like, this monkey, and at some point you could get a little monkey knitted toy thing with the team.
Lauryn 2:14
Uh, did you bring that back for me when you found yourself discovering the product? Yes. Thank you so much for sitting down with me. We are sitting down together and talking about this book because we, like, help run a book club as of January.
Alice 2:32
Yes. It's called melanin Pages Book Club. Me, Lauren, and a few other girls run it. And the book that we're discussing is the book that we discussed with the book club two weeks ago.
Lauryn 2:48
Yeah, a nice start of the year book. Uh, the book we're discussing is The Light We Carry by Michelle Obama. All of our queens. And, um, it just felt like an organic pick because it came out in December, so it was, like, everywhere. And it was, I think, half priced a lot of places. And it's like January New Year, and knew me every single year. I tried to be a new version of myself or well, and Michelle Obama, who has had an incredible life is offering advice. The pitch was solid, so we brought it to book.
Alice 3:16
It made sense. But we didn't anticipate all the hype around spare at the same time.
Lauryn 3:23
So I've read spare now because I kept hearing too much. And I was just like, I actually need to read this book by myself because because I don't know. I didn't know what to believe. Because, you know, Harry's entire theory is just like, right, the press hates me. And I and I think that theory, like, you know, holds water. So me consuming spare through press headlines was like, this doesn't make sense. So I got an audible and I listened to it. And it's very long. Uh, it took me, like, four days to get to Megan, which was kind of the only thing I cared about. Uh huh. I care about young Harry around Dana's death because that's where the book starts. And then I was like, right when's Megan showing up and she doesn't show up for ages, you just sat there like, my goodness. And then some things that were in the headlines, like, when you listen to it in context, you're like, oh, this is fine. And
Lauryn 4:14
okay, some things in context are so terrible. All the stuff about his penis is in that book and it's all unnecessary and it doesn't really need to come up. And it recurs. It keeps going. And you're like, sir, we've had our little random, theoretically funny story about Frostbite on your deck. Like, can we not move past
Lauryn 4:37
it?
Alice 4:38
I haven't read it. I've only seen the dramatic headlines and heard, uh, a few clips. But, yeah, I think it definitely ended up being the book rather than the book that we.
Lauryn 4:51
Picked. What is your take on Megan and Harry? Uh, did you watch the documentary? Did you listen to Archer types? I think that was for podcast with Spotify. I, um, know Harry did a couple of interviews. I did not watch them because I do not um but what is your.
Alice 5:10
I've seen a bit of the Netflix documentary and I half listened to one of the TV interviews because my mum was watching at the same time. So I don't really have any strong informed opinions on his book or kind of like the
Alice 5:32
recent media, um, I guess. But no, I definitely agree that they had a really horrible time when they lived in the UK and they were right to leave. And yeah, they need to eat.
Lauryn 5:44
They need to eat.
Alice 5:46
That's kind of why I feel like he threw everything at the book because they absolutely wanted it to sell.
Lauryn 5:53
Um, I think he threw everything at the book because he was like, I refuse to be blackmailed. Let me say everything
Lauryn 6:01
now can never circle back and be like, oh, don't do this, or release the story. He's just like, now, let me embarrass this offer.
Alice 6:08
Yeah, I guess it kind of gives him a clean slate. Start over with because we've had supposedly everything.
Lauryn 6:18
Um, I defend Michael and Harry to the end in, quote, unquote public because it was a terrible, shitty situation. And the opposite team is like a racist.
Alice 6:29
Team.
Lauryn 6:30
It's not binary, but it turns into a binary argument out in the world. So in terms of that, um, for me, to Megan and Harry, because the alternative is what? The press was not racist, the family was not unsupportive. That's, um, all like, what color? That is a racist question. So I'm, like, firmly teamed this way because the other team is the other team is like, I don't know what's going on over there, but like, Meghan and Harry, and it was perfectly right for them to leave. They had to leave. They were not even leaves. They were pushed out over multiple years. Like, yes, do run and do make money. Like, these are public figures the same way that celebrities have memoirs and have documentaries. Like, I'm watching the Jlo documentary in Netflix right now. Jlo sings and dozen movies. And here's another way she can make money. Let people have their hustle. That's perfectly fine with me. My gripe wants them in a safe space where people do believe that Meghan experienced racism. So people who don't believe that she experienced racism, you can't have the newest conversation with. But once you establish those facts of like, oh, no, this was racist, then you can talk about, like, um, harry, throughout books, his book and his interviews and wherever, keeps pretending that not even necessarily pretending, but the way he discusses the diversity, unconscious bias in racism is, like, definitively wrong.
Alice 7:51
Yeah, he is very wrong. Um, that was a bit of the interview that I did here. And I was like, no, Harry, this is not it. It's the kind of thing where someone learns some new buzzwords and they try to use it to, um, make the behavior. Basically, he's basically like, I've learnt these new words and I think they are the best way for me to account for my past behavior. But they're not, because you have to be honest with yourself. They have to say that these things I did were unacceptable. And I am m truly sorry for them. Because, yeah, it wasn't unconscious. He did those things consciously because it was just.
Lauryn 8:36
Racist. They, of course, have maintained their Duke and Duchess titles. I don't really have a take on that specifically, but the fact that all of his writings, all of his interviews for the book, people are like, oh, Harry, you're trying to ruin the royal family? And he's like, oh, no, I believe in monarchy. It's like, racism is bad, but like, an inherently racist institution built on the backs of chattel slavery and that institutionalized racism across the world is like, fine. Those two things cannot be in the same Harry.
Alice 9:05
Yeah, I mean, there's a theory that basically, if they had been embraced by the royal Family, we would not be talking about these things today.
Lauryn 9:15
I firmly believe that whoever the firm is, whoever these cottages are, who, like I guess, run the royal family business and maybe not the royal family family. I think if they made a concerted effort to protect Megan and understand that. Meghan the same way you'd protect, like, the Queen or you'd protect Charles because they're like all these people can't look bad if they had made the effort to be like, oh, Megan is a racialized person. And so we receive more hate. So we need to consciously protect Megan. I firmly believe they'd still be around at the events here in jolly old England and that's neither he had just you know what? I think that's true. I think they're like, upset they couldn't participate in this racist institution and they're not necessarily upset at the racist institution.
Alice 10:03
Yeah, that's kind of what it sounds like to me.
Lauryn 10:06
But if you got twelve spare hours, listen to spare, because I just listened to it on Audible in Harry's voice. Um, onto the better and more important book. What are your first reactions to the light we carry? What do you think of the book coming into it? What is your star rating? What's the vibe?
Alice 10:30
Um, I was saying that basically when we picked this book, I realized that I hadn't read Becoming and people were like, oh no, it will be fine. I'm sure you can just pick it up. But I know in my head that I would feel like I was missing something. So I read Becoming and then I read A Light We Carry back to back over about a week and a half, two weeks. It was quite intense.
Lauryn 10:55
We just like that.
Alice 10:57
It was extremely long. Becoming took a while. Um, definitely had to dedicate a few evenings to that. But I think I was 100% right. I think The Light We Carry feels like a follow up, like a sequel to Becoming. Kind of like the things that maybe she didn't get a chance to add into that book or like the things that she's been thinking about on reflection after writing that book. So I feel like it's quite tied to Becoming. I don't think that it's super separate as a book. Like, you can pick it up because she does make some references to stories that she told in the other book. But yeah, I think the right way is to read it as a sequel to Becoming. Um, I did enjoy it. I did like hearing some of the new stories that she had to tell. Um, but yeah, I just felt like it was a lot lighter. Uh, it lacked the same amount of debt as the first book, but it made sense because you can't really retell those kind of deep stories about your upbringing, your childhood and your
Alice 12:10
life.
Lauryn 12:13
Again.
Lauryn 12:15
Yeah.
Alice 12:15
Um, I think somewhere between, ah, three to four stars out of five. So, yeah, closer to four than three. That was what I would say.
Lauryn 12:27
I agree. First of all, I absolutely love Michelle Obama. I think she's great. Um, so I am the biased audience who, like, heard about this book. So this book In Waterstones and was like, absolutely bought it that same day. I was ready for whatever she had to offer. Um, I love becoming I have potentially read that book five times. And that's a combination of, like, reading the book and listening to it on Audible. And it is an incredible story, well told. The Light We Carry, I wish was many pages shorter because there's so much in this book that's incredible, so much great advice. Like you just said, so many interesting follow on stories, but it just it just dragged at various points. And, um, all of the chapters are, like, really long. I think the book has, like I can confirm this, but it has ten chapters. But it is still like a book. It is still, like 300 pages long. Like, it is a significant literary artifact. And all of that is just kind of congregated around one idea for chapter that goes on and on and on and on and on. Um, and sometimes that was great and really helped bring out the message. And other times I was like, my goodness, my goodness, I get what you mean.
Alice 13:42
I do think there are certain parts of chapters where maybe she was reiterating the same message, where it could have been cut. Yeah, maybe this could have been kind of like a smaller, more pocket book, typed advice
Alice 13:59
book. Uh, um, and also, because I was trying to read this quite quickly as well, I definitely had to stop myself from skimming. So when I had seen what the chapter was about, I had to really slow down and make sure I read every word, even though it kind of seemed like maybe she was yes, saying the same point dragged out over five pages or something. So I, uh, can see why you got why you felt that way.
Lauryn 14:30
Well, before we get into the details, I'm going to run us through the synopsis and the chapter settings because I think that will help the listeners figure out what are the themes that were explored. And then we can jump into our favorite bits because we talked about this upper club. I know which chunks you really liked, and I want to deep dive into those. Um, this is the official synopsis of the Light we carry. Her life, her learnings, her toolkit to live boldly. How do we build enduring and honest relationships? How can we discover strengths and community inside our differences? What do we do when it all starts to feel like too much? Michelle Obama believes that when we light up for others, we can illuminate the richness and potential of the world around us, discovering deeper truths and new pathways for progress in the Light We Carry, the former First Lady shares her practical wisdom and powerful strategies for staying hopeful and balanced in today's highly uncertain world. A mother, daughter, spouse, and friend, she shares fresh stories, her insights, her insightful reflections on change, and the earned wisdom that helps her continue to become. With her trademark humor, candor, and compassion, she also explores issues connected to race, gender, and visibility, encouraging readers to work through fear, find strength in community, and live with boldness. The Life We Carry will inspire readers to examine their own lives, identify their sources of gladness, and connect meaningfully in a turbulent
Lauryn 15:59
world. So that is the synopsis. This book is broken up into three parts. The first part has four chapters and these chapters are the power of small decoding fear starting kind and am I seen the second part, my favorite part, uh, has three chapters. And this is my kitchen table. Partnering well and meet my mom. And part three also has three chapters. These are the whole of us, the armor we wear. And going high alongside a conclusion and that
Lauryn 16:29
blog. Alice, what was your favorite chapter? What was your favorite part? What was your favorite.
Alice 16:40
Lesson? Um, I think maybe part Two was probably also my favorite one. I didn't think I have a favorite chapter. Um, but yeah, I think definitely part two when she had kind of gotten into it, where she talks about her friendships and the people who have helped her and supported her throughout her journey, especially in the time in the White House. So, yeah, I think that was probably the section that I enjoyed the most.
Lauryn 17:12
A fun thing. So for other people invested in the Michelin Barack Obama Extended Content universe, um, the Michelle Obama Podcast was an official spotify podcast that came out like, right at the beginning of COVID I think, and I listened to it. It's a fantastic, um, production. Please check it out if you haven't. And she actually talked. She has one episode about her friends and about her friendships and so some stories that she told in the My Kitchen Table chapter, which is all about building friendships and how she learned how to build them. When the officialness of First Lady kind of created a gap between her and other people. New stories she told in that chapter, she told in the podcast. And we hear those friends that she's talking about, uh, on the podcast because she invited them to be guests. If you want to deep dive into quite a few of these topics, they were covered in her podcast. Mhm. She also did a Partnering Well, um, about relationships and marriage with not her husband. She did it with one of these guys, what's his name? Conan O'Brien. She talked about that with because I think she was like, I'm not going to bring my husband and have you guys asking dumb
Lauryn 18:24
questions. That's what I'm going to
Lauryn 18:28
do. Part two is the big chunk. I think that also came up during our book club discussion where everyone was like, oh, part one was fine. Part one was like potentially the obligatory COVID stuff where like, COVID has happened and this is a post COVID world. And I guess we must mention it because it was like a really substantial thing in all of our lives. Um, and she talks about how she gets into knitting because just the anxiety of living fairly, the anxiety of living through global pandemic. I need something.
Alice 18:57
I think it was quite funny during but club because people are like, yeah, sounds like she had a very chill time and um, a lot of people could not relate to the whole like I was stressed. I took up netting, um, chapter. I didn't mind it. I, ah, definitely get wanting something to do with your hands or just wanting something to distract you from just everything that's going
Alice 19:21
on. Um, probably for her, someone who is such, we need to do this and then this and then that. Probably there was like some sense of kind of helplessness when we were all completely locked down and you couldn't quite do as much as you wanted to do. So yes, but yes, it probably yes, I think it makes sense that she started there. But it wasn't the best part of the.
Lauryn 19:48
Book. And this is not a criticism of her chapter or this book or anyone writing about COVID but the reality is COVID was just very different for each of us based on circumstance. And so, I mean, I was a uni student, drink COVID, so uni shut down. My roommates moved out, so I just had the flat to myself and I was cooking my way through like, craving for more. I think that's like Chrissy Teekin's second cookbook. Um, there's a chunk of my COVID that was kind of just that. I wake up, I do cloating, I read a book, I pick a recipe. And that was a um, ridiculously privileged way to experience the pandemic. And those circumstances were brought on because I just happened to be a student and the university shutdown and I was allowed to see in my accommodation and I was financially fine and could sit in place. And my part time job obviously gave us all time off. I just sat around like Michelle Obama and I cooked instead of knit for other people. Key workers went to work throughout that first chunk. Mhm, even though she experienced a lot of anxiety, I experienced a lot of anxiety. Complaining is a bit like, um, babes. Yeah.
Alice 20:59
I think she definitely acknowledges that she had a relatively easy time during the pandemic. Um, yes, I think maybe some of it is also just that we're not ready to read about it.
Lauryn 21:13
Yeah. Do you think the next great pandemic novel is coming soon or do we still need another three years to enjoy this fiction?
Alice 21:22
I think we probably need a bit more time away from it because it's just too close still. So I feel like any time that I read something about chivalry, then I'm just like, oh, uh, no, not again.
Lauryn 21:34
Not again.
Alice 21:36
None of this. Yeah, I know there's been some movies that came out, like last year and stuff, but they haven't done very well. So I think yeah, just in general, people don't really necessarily want to talk.
Lauryn 21:50
About COVID We're barely out of COVID Last Christmas, I think, was the first kind of noncovered Christmas. Yeah. Every Christmas before then was like thinking about testing before you traveled and being actively locked down. And this Christmas that just went by. It was the first one. Yeah. People kind of did what they wanted to. And there were no national global announcements of concerning health conditions.
Alice 22:15
Yeah, it was good. The one before I had covered, so it was a big improvement.
Lauryn 22:23
As far as I know. I still haven't caught covert. I maybe got very lucky and had asymptomatic COVID at some point, but whenever I have a cold, I test and it comes up negative. I guess I haven't had covered, which feels absolutely insane.
Alice 22:39
That's good though.
Lauryn 22:40
I feel like I'm the kind of person who should have caught it by now, which makes you sound reckless, but it's just like I am, like, out. I caught chickenpox whenever I was at COVID, and you don't want chickenpox as like an adult. Wow. It is terrifying. You think you're going to die.
Alice 22:56
That's crazy.
Lauryn 22:58
It was wild. It was terrible. Uh, it is a great story. Now, what did you think of the partnering world chapter? Because that's where I think most of the social media noise came from. She did an interview somewhere where she's like, I hated my husband. I hated my husband for ten years. And everyone just glommed onto that and shared it and stitched it and edited it and were sharing their take on that statement. What do you think of the whole chapter?
Alice 23:27
The whole thing? Um, yeah, I saw that kind of between when I finished Becoming and starting this, I finally clicked on that TikTok that you sent. And then I was like, oh, that must mean like, the some more tea. Because nowhere in Becoming where she was like, where she really said that she hated him, she gave a lot of context about how hard it was when he was senator or running for president and stuff. And so I was like, okay, there must be some extra tea that's going to be in the light we carry. There must be something really spicy coming. So I got to that chapter, I was really excited, like, let me see what she was talking about. And, um, there really wasn't anything, I guess.
Lauryn 24:14
Um what tea did you sorry. Do you think that she's going to be like, he cheated on me and.
Alice 24:20
We work through I didn't think that it would be that, but I thought maybe she would add more context to kind of the more difficult stages of their marriage. But she does talk about that, and she does add some more stories, but overall, it's just not as dramatic as that interview made it out to be. So kind of shows you um and it was interesting because when that clip was spliced and spread around social media, there were people giving all sorts of takes about it. And, um, it just didn't feel like any of them reflected what was actually happening. And it kind of made me wonder why she put it like that in the interview, why she said that she jokingly said that she hated him for ten years.
Lauryn 25:04
I don't think she was joking. I think she meant I think she meant.
Alice 25:12
It. But what do you think about how, like, that interview versus the chapter I.
Lauryn 25:18
Mean, I watched that. We're talking, I think, about a clip from the Revolt Generational conversation thing, where it was like, her and we need Harlow and the singer known as her and Kelly Rowland. I think that's where she was like, I hate her. My husband. Um I think, first of all, people speak in hyperbole in ways that they might not write in the really dramatic, intense ways. But I think what she said in the conversation, what she elaborates in the conversation and what she says in the book is just that having a life partner is absolutely intense. It's actually really
Lauryn 25:56
hard. Maybe it's easy to fall in love, but it's hard to build a love that sustains over. I think her and her husband have been together for 30 plus years. That is difficult. And the reality of being a woman living in a patriarchy or being a wife to a specifically ambitious man, um, who maybe hasn't really swept through the privileges of being male and female and working and having a family, is that he was going off and running for president, and she was raising, like, really young children, ostensibly by herself. And she said something somewhere in the book. And I'm sad that I don't have the exact quote in front of me because I'm scared that I'm also dramatizing this, but she says something where it kind of sounds like she's basically functioning like a single mother, um, even though she was happily married. And I think that is true to her experience. And I see why someone in that moment is like, I fucking hate this man. Like, no, like, how dare you go off and you're happy. Like, you're happy. You're pursuing all of your biggest, brightest dreams, and then you pop up and you get to be, like, a nice dad and you get to be a nice husband. But, like, sir, there are 365 days of this. And those days are not all pretty. And the hours in all of those days can be difficult. And you're just not here. And I'm really upset about that. And it's not like I can tell you to not run for president because that would be unfair to other people in a lot of different ways. And I can't force you to hold your career because you know what? I can be like, you need to come home early. And you're going to be like, I'm going to just stop by the gym when it's like, bitch, I haven't been to the gym. Just like, having to explain that to your partner. Um, I have had relationships with people and also, like men, romantic and platonic, where you, like, have to, like, walk them through. Where it's like, no, that's not high. No. What? No, you can't, like, be away the whole week, Monday to Friday, and I'm getting our kids to school every single day. And then the day you're meant to come back, you cheekily go to the gym. That doesn't make.
Alice 27:59
Sense. Yeah, I agree.
Lauryn 28:02
Uh, I have to explain that to him.
Alice 28:04
But again, a lot of the stuff, like something that you said about basically the context behind it and why it was difficult in those years is not really explored as much in this book. That's mostly stuff from becoming in this book. I mostly remember her writing about their trip to Hawaii, the first time that she met his family, and how she learned a lot about him during that trip. But it wasn't really about, um correct me if I'm wrong, there wasn't as much on those years where she hated him.
Lauryn 28:37
Yeah, I don't think this partnering well as a chapter is meant to be like, this is why I hated my husband was meant to be like, oh, okay. For those of you who are looking for lifelong partners, this is how I picked mine. These are the things that we know. And these are reasons why even though we're kind of really different people, I realized that we're really similar people. And actually, like, this man who is so present when he visits his family because he sees them once a year at Christmas is a man I want to marry and have children with because I want a partner who is present when he's with me. And, um, through her story, giving you tips on, like, think about this when you're picking a husband or a life partner, be like, are they present? Are they good to their mothers? Think about these things. I saw that in my husband.
Alice 29:31
Yeah. I think the point that I'm making is that if anyone watched the interview hoping to get more detail about in the book, then you're probably not really going to get that.
Lauryn 29:44
No.
Lauryn 29:47
Tea a fantastic quote in that chapter, which I want to mention is this. And she says when it does work, it can feel like an actual honest to God miracle, which is what love is, after all. That's the whole point. Any long term partnership really. Is an act of stubborn face. And this is a beautiful quote from that chapter and also links to something she said in that interview or that I've seen around from not only Michelle Obama but otherwise her generation, which is like, these young people don't stick with things. And you know, there's a difference between like sticking with like a truly terrible toxic situation in any context, job living situation, romantic partner, and like quitting when it gets a little bit hard and never compromising. And I hope that Michelle Obama means that there are compromises, there are gaps where it's a little bit uncomfortable. But any love in any partnership is stubbornly believing that the person you picked is is a good person and a person you respect. And today's, today is a bit of a hiccup but we're going to persevere because like the long arc is ultimately good. And like, I hated my husband for ten years but we've been together for 30, which means for 20 years I've been happier than I ever thought I could be.
Alice 31:10
Yeah, I think it's not necessarily fair when older people say that young people don't know how to stick to things. I think it's something that's easy for them to say because they've had the time to stick to these things. Like they haven't seen our generation have long term relationships. They haven't seen what that's going to look like. And um, even when you look amongst people my age or um, people maybe who are uh, in their late 20s, early thirty, s, there are lots of people in long term relationships. I don't understand this idea that young people don't understand that relationships can be hard and bumpy. I don't think that this is a new experience. It's not like a new idea to us. I think we're just more aware of the things that went wrong in the previous generation and lots of people just don't want to repeat it. People just don't want to find themselves in an abusive situation. I think we just talk about those things a bit more so that generation are like they know nothing, um, they won't stick to people, they don't have any perseverance. But yeah, I don't agree that's what.
Lauryn 32:20
I saw this week, which was like, oh, that makes sense and that gives me comfort is that apparently in the US. Uh, millennials have a lower divorce rate than other generations. Mhm, and potential reasons they didn't stick with the terrible relationships they were picky and they got married later. But like these people that they've married or like not even married but just like committed to in like that long term permanent way are better, partners are more compatible. Partners are uh, partners who have better relational skills. And so you're like, of course I want to be with this person for ever because they're emotionally competent and they communicate fairly and they know how to argue in a way that resolves the problem and doesn't fret the relationship, whereas older generations and I think it's also like a cycle of older. There was a time when divorce just wasn't a thing. So I'm sure those women looking at their daughters who could have divorces were like, why don't you stick with it? No, I have this opportunity to do something different that could be ultimately healthier.
Alice 33:16
Why must I make longer? Make me happier?
Lauryn 33:19
Why must I suffer? Let me just bounce through this thing peacefully.
Lauryn 33:27
Yeah. What do you think about meet my mom? Since we both loved part two? What did you think of the family Values parenting chapter of this book?
Alice 33:36
Her mom sounds like a good mom. I think even I felt like that in becoming her mom. Sounds like she raised them in a way that was quite balanced. Let them fight their own battles, let them lead their own lives, but had standards and expectations as to what they were supposed to do and how they were supposed to
Alice 34:01
behave. That made her mom sound really cool. And even the parts where she talks about how her mum, um, supported her in the White House, even though she didn't necessarily want all of that fame and fast, but she still came and helped her and looked after the kids.
Lauryn 34:15
Yeah.
Alice 34:15
She just sounds like she's quite lucky in terms of having a mum who's so
Alice 34:23
supportive. I think we talked about as well, um, how that's one of the only chapters it is that chapter, right, where she gives, like, number one instructions number two. And I found that really interesting. But I don't know, maybe that was kind of like one of the most important things for
Alice 34:43
her kind, um, of the relationship between her and her mother and her and her daughters. And maybe she really wanted to hammer home these points that have worked for her and worked for her family.
Lauryn 34:54
What do you think? I love Marianne Robinson so much. She's not fantastic. They're like bubbles of Things, where Michelle told the story, and I'm like, you could not do that in 2020. I mean, Michelle had a kid in the late ninety s, two thousand s. And I am, um, not currently having children. I don't plan to for a long time. But her mom, for example, would make Michelle walk herself to score at five years old. And I'm like, yeah, I don't know about that one. I don't know if I would do that. But that was part of her mom's goal, which was like, I'm not raising children, I'm raising adults. And all these years before 18, you're training to be, like, a good adult, so get yourself places on time. And that's like, oh, I'm not going to do that. But, yeah, we are not raising children as parents. You're raising people who you'd be proud to have dinner with and take on to projects, and you're raising future contemporaries and not like, fostering kids. Then, at 18, just being like, you're an adult now. And it's like, oh, you've never given me the opportunity to practice independence, and now I must be independent. Like, what do you even mean? And you're right. Her mom came through. Her mom moved to the White House for eight years. Kind of unhappily, but helps and supports her children at a time when Michelle is just constrained by a job, uh, and a kind of celebrity that makes it harder to do some of the smaller, simpler things.
Alice 36:23
Beautiful. I agree.
Lauryn 36:26
I want to jump into part three and chapter nine, which is the armor we wear, which I found really, really interesting as someone who just, like, thinks about office politics and
Lauryn 36:37
generational, the way different generations fight for rights, and then how they then look at younger generations coming behind them. And this is a chapter where she talks a lot about, like, oh, when she became a lawyer, she met other female lawyers who had been there before her, and she got the sense that they just wanted her to accept a status quo that Michelle found unacceptable. But then, instead of them supporting her fact, they were like, oh, why do you want more? And how I think that happens. We just talked about older generations being like, why did you stick through relationships? They accepted things. And maybe whether or not they recognize that those things are not totally acceptable, they now look at younger generations and are like, no, stop. And there's not that generational ties to really breaking down institutions and systems that are bad.
Alice 37:30
Yeah, I like that. She acknowledged that, uh, every generation is going to want different things to a generation before. And we all have different things that we're going to fight for, and we shouldn't just stick to the status quo. We should try and do things that we believe in and try and fight for ourselves. So I thought that was good, at least. Um, some people would say it's the bare minimum, but, um, it's good to acknowledge that, um, things shouldn't stay the same. I found it quite funny that one of the examples she gave was, um, not wearing a certain bag to do the.
Lauryn 38:11
Inauguration. I love fashion. I love history. I love things like this. And I feel like she said this in the book where she's, like, all the first ladies were dressed by Valentino, and I refused. And I love that because that is.
Alice 38:22
How her I think it was Oscar De Laurenta. Uh huh. It was Oscar de la Renta.
Lauryn 38:29
Sorry. Oscar de la Rent addressed everyone. And I know Oscar De Laurent addressed Hillary Clinton, because I am actually kind of a fan of Hillary. Not, like, the biggest fan in the world, but I find her admirable in certain ways. And I've looked back at her first lady style, because everyone talks about Hillary Clinton only as it's like, quote, unquote aggressive female politician. I don't think she's that aggressive at all. Um, but then you look back and it's like, no. Hillary attention at some point, was like, a first lady who was hosting, like, teas and dinners, and I just wanted to know what that looked like, because I'm I'm, like, too young to have been there. And she looked fantastic. And she had a great relationship with Oscar Delerne. Then he dressed her for everything, and she always looks so good. And then Michelle Obama comes out in Jason Wu and is very specifically noise outside my flat. Um, m, she's very specifically, like, mixing, like, a Target thing with a designer thing and wearing stuff from black and indigenous designers. And it's like, Oscar De Laurenta got upset and his people were upset, but that's neither here nor there.
Alice 39:30
I love it. Yeah. I think it could sound quite frivolous to some people, but when you're First Lady, these are the things that people are looking at. Unfortunately, they're not talking about how smart you are. It's like, what did Michelle wear to this place? Um, how does Michelle look today? Is she wearing sleeves or not?
Lauryn 39:49
I remember that Michelle Obama's arms are
Lauryn 39:54
intense dialogue, and now I look at her and I'm like, no, this woman is definitely fit. But the way to talk about.
Alice 40:02
Was extreme. A lot of that discussion was quite racialized, and I think she was very much aware of that when she was the First.
Lauryn 40:11
Lady.
Alice 40:12
Um, I think her version of kind of standing up for herself and doing things differently. The stories seem quite small, like picking a different designer to wear. Um, when she hugged the queen when she wasn't supposed to, things like that, you'd be like, oh, she lives such a life of privilege. I guess anyone could take away from that. Even if it's something that's not a big deal, if it's something that you care about, then you should just go for it and deal with this.
Lauryn 40:40
What she's doing by wearing, like, uh, a quote unquote, non traditional designer to an overall board, to some kind of event,
Lauryn 40:49
is that she's creating buzz. That designer then can sell out that specific dress or other than other aspects of their lives. And she's driving commerce and creating wealth
Lauryn 41:00
for, like, people who don't have that opportunity. Classically, often non white people. And even though it's like, um, michelle M. It's just a handbag, it's like, this is not just
Lauryn 41:12
a handbag. This might completely make or break the reputation in this verified world of fashion. And what I did was not just pick a different colored handbag, but create a small but significant shift in wealth generation opportunities. And that's actually really insane.
Alice 41:33
Um, I think it's also a good point about things that become tradition, even though it doesn't make any sense. Like, why was everyone wearing the same designer every time? And it's the kind of thing then the next person might have continued, but sometimes you just have to be like, hold on a minute, that's cool, but it's not set in stone. It's not a law. Let's do something different.
Lauryn 41:57
I think so much of politics is based in just like a tradition, like a vague, a Whimsical tradition. I don't even know if the UK has like, a proper constitution. Um, um, we do things and we continue to do things and we hope and assume that everyone coming up in the next generation of leadership also has the quorum. And then like, Trump wins. The president saying you're like, oh, this is why I need things in writing. Like, you can't just expect that everyone would be like the model statesman and have like, all of your structures be just grounded and like, oh, the next person will be fine. Yeah, that's wildly suspicious. Especially in the US where the first president was like a slave owner, just like the world was poisoned from day one.
Alice 42:42
Yeah, it's good to move father and.
Lauryn 42:45
Father away from that. We must shuffle away. Uh, what are your final takes? Comments on the light we carry? Why should somebody read this book?
Alice 42:56
I think if you're someone who has read Becoming, you should read this one. Just to add a bit more context, background, further musings. I think if you're someone who is a fan of the Obamas is definitely worth reading. Or if you want something that's kind of light and inspirational without being too heavy or going in too deep to the psychology, then yeah, it's kind of good for motivation. Just reminding you of things that you already know. Um, when I was reading the friendship chapter, it reminded me to text someone who I was supposed to text because she was talking about being very intentional with your friendships. And I was like, oh yeah, there was someone who I was going to specifically message and check in on and all of that. I think it's a good light read if you just kind of want to reset and start over and just remember some kind of basic values. And if you like Michelle Obama, if.
Lauryn 43:58
You are one of the many millions of people who bought Becoming, why not? Why not just keep
Lauryn 44:04
it going? I think this is like a lovely, accessible.
Alice 44:10
Book.
Lauryn 44:10
Mhm, she's sharing her own stories. So if you are interested in hearing other people's stories or specifically the stories of Michelle Obama and um, people like her, you know, aspirational women who are trailblazers, definitely pick it up. M, it has some really good, simple advice and I don't say simple to like, undermine it, but just like you just said, michelle kind of nudge you to text a friend and that's really simple advice, but it's like, actually can be quite monumental. Maybe your friend needed to receive that text and maybe we all need reminders to be better friends, better partners, better parents, um, better members of just like social systems and companies and businesses and what have you. And while I maintain that the chapters are too long, it is definitely well worth the read. And it's also the kind of book because it's not a continuous narrative. You can show up, read one chapter, and, you know, go about the rest of your week or your month, and then show up again later on when you feel like you want that kind of advice.
Alice 45:13
Yes, I agree. It's definitely one that you can pick up if you just want to think about some aspect of life.
Lauryn 45:21
And I mean, again, I'm, um, a big fan of audible for this kind of writing. Like, um, memorial audiobook herself.
Alice 45:29
She did.
Lauryn 45:30
Oh, cool. Audible is bay. This is my annette adage. Audible. Audible. Audible is fantastic. Listening to people tell their own stories in their own voice adds an incredible layer of emotion and impact. Um, violet davis McQueen just completed her email.
Alice 45:50
I'm reading her.
Lauryn 45:54
Book now. Get it on. I mean, like, please do buy the physical copy. That's important. But via davis is now grammy winning audible reading of oh, yeah, of course. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Absolutely. Astounding I did not know her story at all. But hearing the emotion in her voice, this is an actor who's, like, very competent in using their, um, instrument, which, you know, is her vibe, is her body, is her voice. And in this way, you only get the sense of her emotional state and the cadence of her voice. It is beautiful. It is the perfect way to listen to that story. And then you also have fun audibles, like will by will smith as a fun audible. He's playing music in the background. It's
Lauryn 46:38
a good would also totally recommend getting will on audible. But audible is just like, a nice way to consume these stories. And these are people telling their own stories. These are people sharing advice that they believe has completely revolutionized the way they live their lives. And you feel that and you believe that in a whole different way when you can listen to them. So I did this both, like, actually reading an audible because, uh, book club was approaching and I hadn't finished it. And I was like, okay, we're going to need to we're going to need to listen as we work on top of reading it in every spare moment to finish it on time. And that was just so.
Alice 47:19
Much
Alice 47:21
fun.
Lauryn 47:22
Yeah.
Alice 47:22
Um, we should probably also plug our.
Lauryn 47:25
Book club, um, james platform, melody and pages. Um, is it like just like at melanin pages on instagram?
Alice 47:31
I think it's at melanin pages book club on instagram. So we will be doing giveaways we will be posting about what books we're reading, what our members like. Um, yeah, give us a follow and come along to an event either virtually.
Lauryn 47:47
Or
Lauryn 47:49
in London, we read books by and about black women. Occasionally, there'll be a, um, book by and about black men as well, and we're happy to integrate the space and have a nice, diverse conversation as well when those pop up. Um, the next book we're reading for February is you made a fool of death with your beauty. Did I say that right?
Alice 48:14
Yes, by a Quaker.
Lauryn 48:16
Amazing. It's such a beautiful title, but I always assemble it somehow. Um, iconic. Iconic. Surprising. Queer love story, actually. Or a love story that centers some queer characters, um, set in a beautiful, beautiful tropical island paradise with big surprises as to the love story. So definitely give it a read because it's a fantastic book by a fantastic author. But also give it a read so you can pop up at book club, which will be
Lauryn 48:46
held virtually. And I'll put everything in the notes. I will put everything in the notes and make sure that I edit and publish this recording
Lauryn 48:56
in time. Thank you so much for doing this with me, Alice.
Alice 49:00
Thank you for having me.
