“Audio is the new black”: A BBC commissioning editor’s advice on the future of podcasting
Rhian Roberts, Commissioning Editor for Digital and Podcasts on Radio 3, 4 and 4 Extra, reveals what she sees next for the BBC during audio’s new industrial revolution.
It’s the first Podcon Cymru. The event is sold out.
There’s gasping room only in the cavernous main lecture theatre at the multi-million pound edifice built to house Cardiff University’s School of Journalism, Media and Culture (JOMEC).
The audience is a mixture of publishing industry bigwigs, presenters from podcasts large and small, tech types, trend-chasers and the generally pod-curious.
The opening keynote from Matt Deegan of the British Podcast Awards yomps through the latest Rajar data on the slow-motion explosion of podcasting.
Next up is Rhian Roberts. The BBC podcasting powerbroker planned to use in her presentation some of the same data as Deegan.
Light on her conferencing feet, Roberts readjusts. Instead of a Powerpoint slideshow on podcast numbers, what she delivers is an inside track on what the Corporation is doing in the podcast space and where it is going next.
Afterwards, Roberts kindly sat down for a coffee with The Scrum.
Q: “To play devil’s advocate: Podcasting is quick, cheap and easy and anyone can do it.”
A: “Some podcasting is — and some really successful podcasting is — and I think there’s a place for that kind of podcast. It has an immediacy, intimacy and authenticity and that is how podcasting started out.
“I do have a couple of those (sorts of podcasts) and they do very well. They have been around a while and they are cheaper (to make) because they don’t take so much research, recording and editing time. I’m really proud of them and I’m glad we do them.
“But we are also, right at the other end, doing these big immersive audio dramas which take a lot of planning and a lot of writing. So we do the whole range.”
Q: “Has podcasting moved on from that lo-fi approach now that so many significant broadcasters and publishers are involved? Has podcasting already changed?”
A: “Yes, definitely. It started as a home-made industry and it was delightful for all of that.
“As more and more people have picked up the habit - ‘audio is the new black’, thank goodness - the market seeks to create more market.
“There are gaps now which can only be filled by people who have some more cash in the bank to make bigger things.”
Q: “Will it be hard to keep the soul of podcasting as the industry scales everything up?”
A: “The answer to the question is different if we are talking about home-made done-on-the-fly podcasts. There is definitely still room for them. I don’t think the growth of the industry will crowd out the really, really good cheap podcasts because they sort of invented it and have loyalty.
“But I think it makes it harder to cut through with a new podcast like that. You have to be very sure of your promotional techniques, which gap are you pitching at. You have to do more work.”
Q: “We hear a lot about short-form being the next big thing in podcasting. Are you actively commissioning to length or is the idea still key?
A: “I’m doing both things. I don’t think I’m quite ready to commission a big new short-form venture but I’m watching it and seeing what we might want to commission there.
“If the right idea came along then, yes, I’d be interested. In terms of duration of episodes, we’re already experimenting with that. In one of the next big dramas we are doing we’ve asked for cliff-hangers to be wherever it happens (naturally) in the narrative. So if there is one three minutes in, we’ll stop it there. That episode is three minutes. The next one might be 20 (minutes). So we are playing about a bit with form.”
Q: “What are you most proud of that you have commissioned and why?”
A: “Can I pick out three things? And not just because Matthew Price the presenter of ‘Beyond Today’ is sitting next to us. I’m incredibly proud of it. The reason for that is that it has offered a genuine new route to air for a lot of young journalists who have had to wait around a lot longer at the BBC - speaking in a different way and telling different stories - to get heard. It has also offered a different way of speaking to some very senior journalists who have been around for a long time. It has put the news in front of a young audience in a way that they have found engaging and different, so I’m really proud of the team that has done that and stuck with it.
“Number two. The last thing that made me cry was George the Poet performing a special show in the BBC Radio Theatre to celebrate us having acquired his ‘Have You Heard George’s Podcast?’, because I think that is one of the most genuinely breathtakingly different pieces of audio I have ever heard.
“When he was in the Radio Theatre with an entirely different audience than the usual audience you get in BBC Radio Theatres, there was a young man who stood up. He was 17 years old and he spoke in favour of pupil referral units. I have never heard that point of view but the fact that he was in the BBC and he was telling his story, something different, made me realise that we have to look for talent like George and celebrate him and his work — we’re lucky to have his podcast on BBC Sounds.
““There was something very special about that night in the BBC Radio Theatre, I’ll never forget it.
“Number three: I’m really proud of ‘You’re Dead to Me’, that playful history podcast. It has done massive numbers. I’m very proud of the number of people who have decided they love that. I think it has just found a way of sharing historical facts which is genuinely new. I like doing new things.”
Q: “With podcasting being a relatively young industry is there more opportunity to work with genuinely different voices than there is for the BBC in TV or radio?”
A: “Here’s a thing that happens with podcasting: you don’t automatically get heard.
“When you turn the radio on, you’ve got your audience. With podcasting you have to bring something new and different or be a massive celebrity to cut through and get heard, so I think it drives towards innovation.
“If you are a podcast commissioner you have to be looking for the new. The podcast space itself is now crowded. It forces you to be innovative. So by its nature it (podcasting) is more open because it’s not always looking for the tried and tested answer to the question. It is always looking for new people and new answers. My (commissioning) process is open, I have an ad hoc commissioning round. People can always email ideas in and if we like them we’ll develop them in collaboration. We’ll also run the odd tender process for specific podcasts we’re after.”
Q: What podcasts are you listening to at the moment?
A: “It’s quite old fashioned but I do listen to quite a lot of the podcasts that people who I work with have made for us — which is a good thing. But in terms of the stuff I listen to outside the BBC I loved ‘Dolly Parton’s America’ —
“I listen to back episodes of ‘Revisionist History’ because Malcolm Gladwell does something genuinely different with the way he tells factual stories and that’s got a lot of lessons for Radio Four.
“I listen to stuff like the ‘Love Island’ podcast to try to learn lessons from those things that are completely other to Radio Four and why they work.
“Also, curiously, I try to watch a lot of TV and try to apply what they are doing to a possible podcast, which is why at the moment I’m fixated on listening to Sex Education on Netflix because it’s pushing us further in the direction of accidental learning. Can you go right into entertainment and still do a lot of learning?”
