Hello Jon Kerry-Tyerman, VP of Business Development at Time by Ping
As a skilled Jack-of-all-trades, Jon is able to combine the worlds of technology, law, and business, to bring information from one domain to another. And, as a trained lawyer, he’s the excellent business development person we need to help translate technical benefit into skilled lawyer-speak. He helps us measure market trends, and in this global climate, there’s a lot to discuss.
This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.
Welcome, Jon. A very serious first question: what’s your superpower?
I’m never bored, and I’m interested in everything. Politics, history, literature, film, music, food, travel, finance, science, physics, space — you name it. Computer hardware and software, I’ve dabbled in it all. That helps me bring information from one domain to another, almost like translation. I’m a proud generalist because I enjoy synthesizing and distilling information in a way that’s easy to consume.
How’d we get here? What’s your career and life story?
I was born on a small island off the southern coast of England called the Isle of Wight and came to the states when I was really young. I completed elementary school here in California, but went to Germany for middle school and high school before coming back to attend UC Davis for undergrad.
Since I’m interested in a lot of things, I studied a lot of things; from mechanical engineering, to political science, and then back to the engineering school for a year to study computer science. When I was focusing on liberal arts, I had the freedom to take drama, astronomy, and many other interesting classes, and I found that I greatly preferred that multidisciplinary approach.
I went to law school because I have a passion for the law and enjoy the way lawyers approach problems, so I treated law school like an MBA — a foundation that would help me in other ways, like combining law and tech.
After graduating, I went to work at LexisNexis, one of the big legal technology companies, when they were trying to move from being a publishing house to a software company. They were one of the first online research services and it was an interesting time to be there in the mid-2000s.
I rose quickly through the ranks because there weren’t many people who could speak the language of law, technology, and business all at once.
I rose quickly through the ranks because there weren’t many people who could speak the language of law, technology, and business all at once. At the end of my eight years there, I was head of applied research & development. We would do original field research to investigate where the unmet, unsolved problems were, how to apply our technology to solve those problems, and whether we could build a promising line of business around those solutions.
We would field-test ideas and refine them before building out a business case and the accompanying technical specs, and then hand that to the business for implementation. We did that across over 200 products, keeping LexisNexis competitive in every part of their portfolio.
Next I went to a small startup called Everlaw, which makes cloud-based ediscovery software. This is probably the most cutting edge part of the litigation process because it’s where you turn evidence into data. There were only 12 of us there when I started, with no real sales or marketing teams. They hired me to build out the business side, having never done sales or marketing before, so I had no idea what I was doing. I just jumped in and made a lot of mistakes and learned along the way. I was very lucky the product was so strong that it could compensate for all my shortcomings. It sold itself.
We did well, and raised our series A with Andreessen Horowitz. That allowed us to move from a company of generalists, like me, to a company of specialists. I easily could have coasted there forever.
But then my Mom died of a rare and super aggressive form of cancer. She was diagnosed in December, and died the following February. It was hard to deal with but at the same time, looking at her life, it was clear she had no reason for regret. She had been around the world several times. She’d been to Antarctica with me, Easter Island, the pyramids. She painted, she learned instruments. She pursued every passion and never got complacent in the way that I felt I was becoming.
That was a wake up call. If I want to be able to look back on my life that same way, I want to know that I challenged myself and kept expanding my horizons.
That was a wake up call. If I want to be able to look back on my life that same way, I want to know that I challenged myself and kept expanding my horizons.
Around that time, I’d met Kourosh and Ryan. Their vision of giving back time — with their company values so ingrained in their DNA — was so compelling that I knew this was the place for me.
You came from Everlaw, so you have several industry vantage points. Can you tell me about them?
…in 2014, the cloud was still an if question. Lawyers were like, “That cloud thing sounds really risky.” In those five years I was there, the conversation shifted from, “Should we do this?”
Joining Everlaw in 2014, the cloud was still an if question. Lawyers were like, “That cloud thing sounds really risky.” In those five years I was there, the conversation shifted from, “Should we do this?” to “How do we do this?” with respect to moving their on-premises software into the cloud. That was an interesting time to be there as one of the first cloud-native discovery platforms, helping law firms make that transition.
One of the lessons I learned there was that the biggest challenge for technology in law is change management. A lot of the tech that we’re deploying is actually not that cutting edge. It’s machine learning that’s been around for decades, and a lot of the problems we’re solving have been solved in other domains many times over. It’s about helping lawyers slow down and appreciate the value of embracing a different approach.
Lawyers find grooves easily, sometimes creating a survivor bias of “well this works, so why would I change it?” Convincing them it’s worth investigating to try something new is a major but worthwhile effort.
You own Time by Ping’s GTM strategy in the midst of COVID — meaning you are managing the transition of the legal industry not only to new technology, but new working norms amidst a pandemic. Do you have any interesting tidbits to share with us on the market, how it’s changing, and what went from nice-to-have to must-have during this time (and the foreseeable future)?
In law, everywhere you look there are wild inefficiencies, particularly around time. Because of the billable hour and the agency model, there’s very little incentive to become more efficient with your time.
I think the most important lesson here is about the urgent need for efficiency around things that law firms have historically swept under the rug. In law, everywhere you look there are wild inefficiencies, particularly around time. Because of the billable hour and the agency model, there’s very little incentive to become more efficient with your time. They’re getting paid for everything, so who can blame them? But now we’re in a market where there isn’t as much slack.
It’s too soon to say with any certainty what the macro implications of the global crisis are, because it’s so up and down and no one knows when or how it will end. Some firms are operating as if we’ll be back to business as usual in three months, whereas other firms are battening down the hatches and saying, “This is the new normal. We have to adjust to that because it’s a survival game.” This feels like an existential crisis to them, whereas for others it feels like another blip in a long-term picture.
The thing about law firms in particular, is that they are all quite different. Part of it is a manifestation of how they were trained. Lawyers don’t go to business school, yet they are tasked with running a business. So every law firm reinvents their own way to do things. Some have professional management, some have a C-suite, and some don’t. Some treat non-lawyers as secondary citizens, and yet others elevate them and say, “No, this is a really important function that we need to be successful.” Some look like corporations, while others look like mom-and-pop shops.
The only universal thing is that there’s so much less room for the ways in which firms have historically been complacent around operational efficiency — that’s probably gone forever. Their clients are not going to tolerate it.
The second major shift is that this crisis is forcing us to humanize more than ever. We’ve seen more of each other’s bedrooms and living rooms than we ever have. We can now see each other as full people and not just colleagues.
The only universal thing is that there’s so much less room for the ways in which firms have historically been complacent around operational efficiency — that’s probably gone forever. Their clients are not going to tolerate it.
The second major shift is that this crisis is forcing us to humanize more than ever. We’ve seen more of each other’s bedrooms and living rooms than we ever have. We can now see each other as full people and not just colleagues. That kind of humanizing aspect of this crisis, the way in which we see each other now, is pretty transformative. It’s going to change how people operate, not just in law firms but within every kind of company.
How does starting with lawyers as your main use case prepare Time by Ping for success?
Starting with legal is a great way for us to calibrate ethical boundaries. Lawyers have a lot more agency than a traditional employee since they are partners in their organizations. So, if they don’t like something, they don’t have to do it.
Time by Ping is the most mission-driven organization I’ve been a part of, honestly. We also have aspirations for other markets. Legal is our foothold, but starting with legal is a great way for us to calibrate ethical boundaries. Lawyers have a lot more agency than a traditional employee since they are partners in their organizations. So, if they don’t like something, they don’t have to do it.
It makes us cognizant of how we thread the needle to deliver something that adds value without making lawyers uncomfortable, without adding too much of a “Big Brother” aspect, and without conceding too much control to management. That helps us find that balance in this market where the workers all have agency. We’ll optimize here before we start to reach out into other similar markets.
You have a law degree, but like many others at the company, have elected not to use it. What made you change course, and how does your JD help you at Time by Ping?
I felt more useful as a bridge between law and other industries like technology and business. The JD is super helpful because it means that I’m fluent in law, and I can translate from one language to another.
I didn’t think law practice looked right for me. I felt more useful as a bridge between law and other industries like technology and business. The JD is super helpful because it means that I’m fluent in law, and I can translate from one language to another.
People tend to think lawyers are technophobes but it couldn’t be further from the truth — lawyer needs just haven’t been built for properly.
There’s a lot for me to work on between tech and law. People tend to think lawyers are technophobes but it couldn’t be further from the truth — lawyer needs just haven’t been built for properly.
Nobody graduates with a PhD in Computer Science and then says they want to go build the next legal technology company. They go and build Facebook or Google. The technology talent that you used to get in the legal space was typically not top tier, so the solutions that you got just weren’t that great. The technology for lawyers was awful, not user-friendly, and looked like it had been built 20 years ago.
I’m able to talk about technology without talking down to lawyers. I can say, “I know you’ve been shortchanged here historically, but now we actually have that same kind of horsepower that other industries have had, and we’re giving you the same kind of design, AI, cloud computing — everything that makes a difference.”
What makes Time by Ping different from the previous products you’ve been in charge of?
The biggest difference is that this is one of the rare AI and automation stories that doesn’t have a loser. Typically, when you’re automating a task, somebody is out of a job or will make less money.
With Time by Ping, nobody loses. Lawyers don’t have to do something they hate doing. Clients are getting invoices that are more detailed, timely, and accurate, so they’re loving it. And of course, the law firm is loving it because they’re getting more revenue since we’re capturing more time that would otherwise be missed.
With Time by Ping, nobody loses. Lawyers don’t have to do something they hate doing. Clients are getting invoices that are more detailed, timely, and accurate, so they’re loving it. And of course, the law firm is loving it because they’re getting more revenue since we’re capturing more time that would otherwise be missed. Machines are better at this than humans are. Firms are getting data that they can use to drive strategic decisions within the practice. They can actually figure out the cost of a task and forecast how much time they’re going to need. Everybody wins, which is a rare thing.
If you’re billing more, why do clients love it?
This is interesting. Typical invoices that the client receives are two or three months after the work was done. Clients look at the bill and know it’s incomplete, lacks detail, and is not accurate. Then they hire a third party to review all their legal bills, and this third party pushes back for them. For every dollar you spend on invoice review, you get $10 back in a reduced bill. It’s a huge ROI.
Because of this agency model, clients worry that firms might not have their best interests at heart. Even though these are the attorneys that are advocating on their behalf! It’s a big disconnect.
Third party reviewers exist precisely because clients don’t trust the bill. Because of this agency model, clients worry that firms might not have their best interests at heart. Even though these are the attorneys that are advocating on their behalf! It’s a big disconnect.
Time by Ping is huge because automated and detailed timekeeping restores the trust between the client and firm. With us, you can see with detail and accuracy every single thing that the lawyer did, because the machine is really good at capturing time accurately.
Changing incentives, deleting busy work, and restoring full client-lawyer trust. Thanks for a dive into the product, the lawyer-headspace, and the deep background on why legal tech is so ripe for change.
Stay tuned for more interviews from Time by Ping’s leadership.
