Well, it started from veganism.

One time, I texted my SmartFriend to ask her why she was a vegan and it morphed into this conversation that answered every question and none at the same time. I really wanted to share it, so here it is:

Me: Yes finally, I’ve been looking for someone to explain a vegan POV to me. And you’re perfect.
I’m going to argue of course. But humour me.

SmartFriend: We’ve done this before. It didn’t get anywhere.
It boils down to if you have alternatives why choose to make animals suffer?
For me it’s even more than that. If you have alternatives why choose to make animals suffer especially when it’s even worse for your health and worse for your environment and economy?
It’s been proven that animal consumption affects your health negatively.

Me: You and I? I don’t think so.

SmartFriend: It’s also been proven that the way we raise livestock is inefficient, bad for our soil, and emits more CO2 than our vehicles do.
It’s also been proven there’d be more food accessible if we used the land we use for raising livestock to grow more plant based foods instead.
Accessible to people in poverty that is.

Me: I have one question. But you’ve raised points that I have not considered. So I’ll check those out. Question — Why are you upset that we (humans) don’t care about animals’ (suffering) and we see them as merely food?
(Some animals see us that way too anyway.)
(Or at least a lot of animals see other animals like that.)

SmartFriend: It upsets me because we have the option to not. What differentiates us is that we have reason, and perspective, and options. Other animals do not.
Like, the cliche “to whom more is given more is expected” (or something like that).
Why not strive to be better? More efficient and more compassionate?
My question is why would you not WANT to?
Why wouldn’t you want to try to be the best human you can be?
And it’s not like I’m a perfect human.

Me: You’ll think this is not reason enough. But this is why — It’s harder and I like meat. Also, I don’t necessarily see it as being a better human. But that can just be attributed to my opinion of animals.

SmartFriend: It’s not like I didn’t eat duck and asun on Christmas and made up a good reason why I can take a break from veganism. I was raised on meat and fuck up often. I end up being like 85% vegan overall. But when I realize and remember why I think it’s fucked up. I reset and try hard again. I don’t even understand not trying.

Me: I just said why. It’s harder and there’s no real gain for me (except the things I need to fact check). And I like meat. I don’t regard animals at all. They’re just that to me. Do you understand that?

SmartFriend: Yes and no.
Yes because that’s how we’re raised to think — “They’re lesser animals we’re superior. Because we’re superior we can do whatever we like with them”
What changed my mind about that is that is actually the exact same mindset behind every single type of bigotry that exists.

Me: Yeah well, if Lions were smart, they’d farm deer too.

SmartFriend: To me, that should be enough to realize that’s bullshit.

Me: I still think there’s a distinct difference between this and bigotry. But I see the similarity
Do you see the difference?

SmartFriend: No I don’t. Explain to me why you think there is one? Because animals can’t directly benefit your life? Because you don’t have a friend or work with any non human animals?

Me: Let me ask a question first. It’s about the government(s) of the world.
So because people chose a certain group of people to control the affairs of their geographical region. What real right does the government have over me? I mean, they essentially control everybody’s lives. The laws control lives too. But what right does anybody or any group of people have to throw a “thief” in jail. What is possession? What if someone doesn’t care for all the laws, governments and definitions that came before him. Why do we have a right to judge that person and punish that person?

SmartFriend: My answer is a bit tangential and whimsical.
Not the best person to ask that. I’ve dreamt up an idea that semi anarchy might be the most effective way to live. I think we’d benefit from having intentional communities with their own rules in which people pick and choose the society they want to live in and people are given the option to opt out after a certain age. And governing bodies would exist only to make sure communities weren’t affecting other communities negatively with their decisions or not looking their members the option to leave.
In summary… I’m saying I don’t think there is any societal structure currently in place that I feel comfortable with. The only benefit of governments I can think of is to save us from ourselves, our selfishness, and forcing our desires on others. It rarely does that, so.

Me: All this is based on your belief that selfishness and forcing desires on others is negative. But what is bad? What is good?

SmartFriend: Right.

Me: What is a better human being? Since I’ve started thinking like this, I don’t know how to feel.
It’s just a weird place.
It’s like why do we expect racist people to not be racist? We only do so based on our definitions of better/good etc etc.

SmartFriend: It’s clearly subjective but I think suffering isn’t debatable. If people feel like they’re suffering, whatever commonly causes that feeling should be considered “bad”.

Me: Everything is debatable.
And obvs my suffering is of greater importance to me than everybody else’s.
And there are so many possible causes of suffering
And no way to measure suffering.
To try to say which is actually more than which and for who.
You cannot categorically say that an animal will suffer more than me if I stopped eating meat
Like there’s zero way to prove it.
And even if I agree with you.
That’s just what I think.

SmartFriend: Do you go through this mental gymnastics when helping a loved one you think is in need?
Don’t get me wrong, I can’t point out in faults in your thinking… but I also think it’s pedantic.
It’s not complicated to say “I see something fucked up and I don’t want to participate”.
Or “I think this is fucked up, I want to help”.
I’m willing to bet you donated to help people in Kaduna.

Me: It is pedantic.

SmartFriend: You didn’t need to think this much.

Me: Yes I did. This is why this thinking is so annoying for me. Because I wanna cling to “good” so badly.

SmartFriend: That’s why I don’t need to assess the details to just choose to try my best to mitigate animal suffering. It doesn’t cost me much.

Me: Yeah but now I’m understanding that we’re just all different. And there’s no universal good and idk — life might just be pointless.

SmartFriend: It is inherently pointless but i’ve chosen my point. Turning up my nose at whatever I deem unfair.
And I don’t do the best job of always considering other perspectives, but i’ve chosen what I want to champion and will stick with it until convinced otherwise.

Me: And that’s…fine.
Can I make this conversation a Medium post?
Or an article sha.

SmartFriend: I don’t mind.

Me: You wanna be anonymous?

SmartFriend: Yes please.

Me: 💙👍🏾

SmartFriend: Thanks for being willing to listen to my perspective and wanting to share it ❤.

Me: Well, you listened to me too. 😬😬