Last Friday, the Triall team hosted an Ask Me Anything (AMA) session inside our community group chat to answer all of your most pressing questions. Below we provide a write-up of the Q&A for those that missed the session.
AMA details
Location: t.me/triallcommunity
Time: 14:00 UTC, Nov 19, 2021
Moderator: Demirel
Guests: Hadil Es-Sbai (CEO), Niels Klomp (CTO), Joost Flach (Head of Clinical Affairs), Mark van der Waal (Head of Product Design), Raymond van der Waal (Head of Marketing)
AMA write-up
Demirel (Mod): Hello everyone! Very excited! Great to have you all here.
Let’s start with a small introduction of each team member, what’s your background and what’s your role within Triall?
Raymond: Sure, my name is Raymond van der Waal and I’m co-founder and Head of Marketing at Triall which essentially means that I’m lead responsible for all of our marketing and communication activities. My background is in biomedical sciences and business management and I have previously built experience as a researcher and consultant
Hadil: Hey Triallians! I majored in analytical chemistry at the VU University Amsterdam, in the ’90s. Having a background of 20+ years in clinical development and assumed several roles within the pharmaceutical and clinical services industry. Became an entrepreneur in 2006 and incorporated several service companies since then. Excited to lead the Triall team as CEO.
Joost: I’m Joost Flach, one of Triall’s co-founders and current Head of Clinical Affairs. Born and raised in Amsterdam, The Netherlands. I have worked as a clinical research scientist for over 5 years and have a lot of hands on experience in daily clinical operations (also having experienced how inefficient and costly clinical trials can be without the right digital tools…).
My background lies in Neuropharmacology and Business management, and I hold a PhD in microbiology R&D. Also a long-term crypto and blockchain enthusiast. Within Triall, my role is to make sure that the eClinical applications we develop with Triall, align with the needs and desires of end users in the clinical domain
Mark: I’m Mark van der Waal, co-founder and Head of Product Design. Also a PhD candidate in Health Technology Innovation, with a background in biomedical sciences, health tech assessment, and design. At Triall, I oversee design and development of our blockchain-integrated software solutions for clinical trial professionals. Fun fact: not related to Ray (we get asked that quite a lot)
Niels: Hi, I am the CTO of Triall, which means I am responsible for the development of the software products. I have been in the blockchain space for little over 6 years now, and have been involved in many different projects. My focus is on privacy, identity and collaboration next to business process management. I have been in the software industry for 20+ years now and have been involved in projects and products ranging from healthcare, enterprise content management, online backup solutions, high-availability infrastructures, blockchain and self sovereign identities
Demirel (Mod): Amazing! Let’s move to the next session of our AMA! Submitted questions round.
Question 1: Many of the big pharma companies (Bayer, MSD, BMS, Roche, Lilly, Pfizer just to name a few) are using a shared platform for trial documents management (SIP-Shared Investigator Platform) because of regulatory requirements. Will Verial eTMF try to compete or integrate with SIP, or the plan is to use it at a smaller scale-like an in-house (hospital, study site) solution for document management?
Hadil: Great question! While we are in talks with big Pharma companies (unfortunately, I can’t name them as we are bound to confidentiality…), we will initially focus on Small Medium Enterprises and Hospitals/Research Institutes. Main reasons;
- These two market segments represent a majority of the market
- We can make the biggest impact here, as many groups/companies have suboptimal clinical operations infrastructure.
We are currently building traction with our first project, to show the clinical research industry the benefits of blockchain. The industry is highly regulated and thereby fairly conservative in the adoption of new technologies. We will subsequently expand our product range, as you can see on our roadmap. Where on one had, we will integrate with other eclinical providers that have synergy with Triall products and on the other hand keep building new feature that together for the Triall ecosystem.
Lastly, big pharma spends tremendous amounts of time and resources on data security and safe guarding data integrity. There is a lot of inhouse innovation going on. We will be help them as well, when their trial sites are using the Triall ecosystem. So they are following us closely as well.
Demirel (Mod): Thank you so much, Hadil! well-articulated answer!
Question 2: I know you promoted the project with Cryptos R us, Crypto Profits and other content creators on social media. Are there any plans to continue and maybe extend these types of promotions. As someone who found out about the project trough Youtube I think this type of reach out is invaluable.
Raymond: Certainly, we see the value of working with (YouTube) influencers to help spread the word about Triall. We’re continuously looking for opportunities to tap into new networks and communities through paid media activities, partnerships, and other means.
Put simply, our marketing activities focus on growing our community (by bringing in new token holders, stakeholders in the clinical & crypto domains, strategic partners, etc.) and strengthening our community (by engaging with community members and involving them in the decision-making and development of the Triall ecosystem)
Demirel (Mod): Well done as always, Raymond! I am sure the community now got a picture of the marketing strategy of Triall!
Question 3: Outside of being attached to blockchain technology, what features of your software solutions will help draw customers away from the currently well established industry leaders?
Mark: Let me take this one. First of all, I’d like to emphasize that we hold user-centered design in very high regard. Blockchain and decentralized identity technologies provide incredible opportunities for improving the way we organize clinical trials, but they are means after all, and not ends in themselves.
We’re motivated to apply these technologies as enablers of great user-centered solutions, with smooth user experiences, targeting real-world problems, needs, and demands.Triall was born out of the identification of actual industry needs after all.
Looking at competitive offerings from a user perspective, Triall differentiates on several key (somewhat interrelated) factors, inclusivity being a major factor. In our design and dev processes, we focus on moving away from the daunting user interfaces and complex instructions (in other words: high training requirements) of current eClinical products, aiming to ease document management and other everyday clinical trial tasks.
Moreover, we commit to not charging the high upfront fees (sometimes 100k+) that our competitors charge, thereby lowering barrier of entry for small-to-medium-sized (SME) stakeholders, the majority of the market, to onboard purpose-built clinical trial software in their operations.
In addition to inclusivity, I would say Modularity is a major factor. Our API-driven ecosystem infrastructure consists of a modular configuration of different underlying microservices, where each microservice performs a single specific function (e.g. blockchain registration) and is interchangeable and scalable on its own. This allows for fast implementation, easy maintenance, and rapid scaling. Our customers can choose a configuration of microservices according to their needs and budget (which of course factors into Inclusivity again ;-) )
I thinks that’s enough for me right now
Hadil: Thanks Mark, and with you being our head of product design, we know that the look and feel of our products are in good hands too 😊
Demirel (Mod): Thank you so much, Mark! for the great overview of the services triall will be offering to customers and the industry!
Question 4: Hello, this is more like a suggestion than a question. Nice step on the binance bridge integration. I suggest we add others like. Avax, polygon, Solana, polkadot. etc.
Niels: Ah that sounds like my cup of tea. Yes, we will certainly look at other bridge integrations as well and have started discussions with a layer 2 project that can help tremendously in that aspect as well. We are well aware of the high gas fees on Ethereum, yet it still is the most prominent platform for tokens like TRL. Having cross-chain functionality is at the core of Triall. Both in the products itself, as well as for the token. Some of the projects you mentioned have reached some pretty nice milestones and traction and we are constantly on the lookout for those.
Thanks for the suggestions. We are always open to these, as we really believe that together with our community can make Triall succeed. We know a lot about the clinical trial space, but we also see a diverse group of people in here, from which we always can learn 😊
Demirel (Mod): True! We do a have very diverse and supportive community here. Thank you so much, Niels Klomp for your amazing inputs.
Question 5: I understand you cannot disclose the identity of Sponsors who have used or are planning to use Verial eTMF. However, can you reveal the average trial size, phase or therapeutic area? Thank you in advance.
Joost: We aim to provide insight in this regard as much as we can. For instance, we have introduced previous studies via social media posts and will do the same for future studies. We are also looking at integrating these metrics on our website in an interactive map for increased visibility.
The Verial eTMF can be used in any type of study, therefore, there is not really an ‘average type’ of study. But here are some key metrics of past and ongoing studies:
Irritable Bowel Syndrome — Phase III — Multi Country — 200+ patients
Recurrent Urinary Tract Infections– Phase II — 50 participants.
Autoimmune and Inflammatory disease — Phase I — < 50 participants
Ray: Yes, more studies coming soon, which we will also share in our marketing ;)
Demirel (Mod): Thank you so much, Dr Joost! Amazing as always!
Question 6: Do you envision Triall as a competitor for current trial data management solutions, or as an adjunct that enhances and expedites these systems? If so, the adoption of Triall would seem both natural and welcomed in the industry!
Hadil: Sounds like one for me to answer 🤓
We’d like to embrace a unique approach here at Triall. Namely, we aim to transform competitors into collaborators. I think the question perfectly puts it as it is; Triall products add and improve other/current systems.
We are also building our own unique products, that help solve day2day problems for clinical research professionals. The products can also easily be integrated with other systems. So, we are not just another tech provider, we don’t want to reinvent the wheel. We see ourselves as a Platform provider, with blockchain-integrated APIs. The builder of an ecosystem (or a digital highway) bringing together software users & software providers.
Demirel (Mod): Thank you so much!
Question 7: How can a blockchain be integrated and decentralized with research?
Niels: Hah the heart of what Triall is actually doing. Let me answer that.
One of the core things to do right with blockchains is identities, which a lot of blockchains haven’t done tbh. If you think about it then whenever you work together you will always need to ensure you know who you are working with, and that they have the proper permissions to access, edit and share data with you. Then for instance in the EU there are regulations about data and privacy like the GDPR.
Being in the clinical trial space, means there is even way more strict regulation. At the same time there is also an enormous amount of stake holders from different roles involved, using disparate IT systems.
In order to properly collaborate between all these stakeholders and IT systems, you need means to identity them. At the organization level, at the mandate and permissions level, at the certificate/diploma/education levels, and of course at the individual levels. You need to have proper consents, delegation and traceability.
That is where the blockchain comes in. It is the way to tie all these stakeholders together, to give organizations control of their employees, whilst at the same time to allow organization to work together and retaining safety of access to information as well as to be able to prove that at a later point in time for compliance. We are using anchoring techniques, Self Sovereign Identity technology, the latest advancements in data sharing technology all integrated.
Demirel (Mod): For audience who might be wondering what GDPR means General Data Protection Regulation.
Question 8: Amazing to see the TRL token go live and I cant wait for your clients to adopt the token system. What developments are you most excited about in 2022?
Raymond: I’d be happy to answer that one.
Looking forward to onboarding a lot of strategic partners and clients in both the clinical trial and crypto domains. We’ve build up sizeable momentum over the past months and it excites me to see that we’re growing every day. We’ll soon be sharing some more details how TRL is used to pay for our first application Verial eTMF. Scaling this token system to a full-size ecosystem that brings together active software users and various software providers is something that most excites me :)
Demirel (Mod): Thank you so much, Raymond! Indeed! The growth rate of Triall I must say is tremendous!
Question 9: How much in estimated TCRED does a client need to use your solution for 6 months?
Joost: The pricing for the Verial eTMF may vary per study, and per phase of the Triall Ecosystem. Nonetheless, a reasonable estimate would be 17,500 USD per study (average duration of 18 months). This pricing is based on real examples of previous and upcoming studies.
It may also be likely that we incentivize adoption by offering discounts to new clients, if and where needed, to increase network fostering effects, marketing and adoption value.
Our other applications, when released, will have a different pricing. Clinical Trial Management Systems (on our roadmap), for instance, tend to be more expensive to use, and generally these are used in conjunction with each other (so a client would purchase both eTMF and CTMS licenses). The price ultimately is determined by the size and duration of the study, which can vary a lot.
Demirel (Mod): Thank you so much, Dr. Joost! The future looks very bright for triall!
Question 10: How will the team promote the product to mainstream audience without disclosing the clients data due to privacy? Eventually the lack of clear growth metricals may fuel fud. Is a transparency dashboard planned? Maybe tracking the amount of Tcred bought and burnt TRL?
Mark: Indeed, there are plenty of confidential / privacy-preserving ways to prove traction on the application side. Besides offering insight into T-CRED / TRL metrics, like you suggest, we will continue to offer insight into partnerships (with customers, eClinical co-innovators, and industry stakeholders) where applicable.
Joost mentioned something about this as well (sharing of key project metrics).
Demirel (Mod): Thank you so much, Mark!
Question 11: Which eclinical solution will be rolled out next?
Hadil: Also here, we are making some good progress!
We are currently talking to several large eClinical providers, who already have products that support coordination, execution and management of clinical trials. Through these collaborations, we aim to form the so-called ‘’Triall Hub’’ where we will add our blockchain enabled features to strengthen these existing products. Bu we also continue to develop our own products, as I mentioned before.
To answer the question directly; we are currently looking into developping an electronic site delegation log. Which is a document that records which clinical trial staff is working on the clinical trial, what their role is, their qualifications, etc, etc. This delegation log has always been one of the core issues during audits and inspections and we think blockchain can eliminate some of the persisting compliance issues there.
Demirel (Mod):
Question 12: The whitepaper describes a 2.5% burn mechanism when projects convert unused T-CRED back to TRL. Can you say something about the circumstances around which this will tend to happen, and give us an idea of the likely typical size of such a burn?
Joost: The TRL-TCRED conversion scheme and associated 2.5% burn can be a bit complex. We therefore made an explainer video that explains it a lot better than I can in text: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TljDkPA_FCQ&ab_channel=Triall
But, simply put, the 2.5% burn can be regarded as a fee for using the platform and the conversion contracts. All payments for our software services (and that hosted by third parties in the Triall ecosystem), involve the 2.5% burn fee. If a client pays 17.500 USD to use the Verial eTMF for a study, 2.5% of that will get burned.
It’s good to mention that the TRL-TCRED smart contracts and burn mechanisms have not been developed, yet. Until it is, all payments are settled in TRL, and the 2.5% burn will take place at the moment of purchase of the 6-month upfront payment.
Let’s review that in an example: Client B-Pharm wants to use the Verial eTMF. They sign a contract with Triall and the study will be initiated. B-Pharm needs to pre-pay for (at least) each 6 months of use. This first 6-month period will cost them 7,500 USD. From the open market (CEX or DEX), 7,500 USD worth of TRL is bought. Immediately, 2.5% of that will get burned. The remaining TRL will be locked, and gradually released, in a linear, monthly fashion, and can be sold by the service provider to settle their operating expenses. After the 6 month period is ended, B-Pharm will again purchase 7,500 USD worth of TRL for the next 6 months, and again, immediately, 2.5% will get burned. Repeat until the study is completed.
Demirel (Mod): Thank you so much, Dr. Joost! great example clarifies the burn mechanics very well and how it will create value for TRL.
Question 13: Initially Triall will use third-party blockchain. What are the expected savings in using own blockchain?
Niels: Ah that is a question for both short/medium term and the long term.
Triall choose to have selected third-party blockchains and abstraction mechanisms for different reasons. First of all if there are blockchains that are good in a certain feature, like for instance anchoring, you can try to reinvent the wheel. We choose to create abstraction layers, so we can have different implementations for that feature, even combining blockchains if we want. We lift on the security these platforms already deliver.
Next we are really striving for interoperability, that is in our DNA. If you want to have so many stakeholders working together, you can try to lock them into your own blockchain, but consortia are always hesitant to start using platforms of competitors for instance. If you look at the work we will be doing on identities and data-sharing, then you will want your tech to have a really wide reach and be interoperable and secure, so that these parties do not feel fully locked in. Obviously with the success there is some lock in simply because we would be providing that one solution to use your own blockchain.
Lastly I have been involved from my role in several blockchain projects, also at core-development levels. Creating your own blockchain is a lot of work and with current advancements would mean we have to dedicate quite a lot of resources, without overcoming the previously mentioned issues. So hence why we choose to go with existing blockchains. Some we use are already at the low end of the spectrum for actual usage by our products, so to recoup money from creating your own blockchain would take quite a bit of time, as development of our own blockchain will cost us at least a few million dollars with all things on our whishlist. So yes we will keep creating our own blockchain in mind, but at the same time it needs to make sense from a feature perspective and from the money we have to put in versus the return on investment
Demirel (Mod): Thank you so much, Niels Klomp!
Question 14: I am a doctor who loves cryptocurrencies. Your project is very interesting. Can you develop the project in a solid and long-term way? Does your project have a link between a hospital and a medical organization that can pay medical staff with TRL coin?
Hadil: Welcome aboard doctor! We’re currently onboarding various key stakeholders and decision-makers in Europe, US and AsiaPacific from the clinical trial sponsor, service provider, and investigator space. We do this, because we want to understand everybody’s needs and build our ambassador base.
Yes — in the future, we foresee an important role for TRL in P2P compensation between sponsors and sites & research subjects. We know that sites and research subjects often have to wait months and months before being reimbursed for their work or participation. We want to tackle this.
Demirel (Mod): Thank you so much, Hadil!
Question 15: We want to hear the news of the new exchange. Is there a plan?
Joost: There is a plan for sure.
Getting TRL listed on multiple exchanges and increasing liquidity and adoption is key to us and remains a primary area of focus. We are in active conversations and negotiations with multiple exchanges, but we cannot (ever) mention these by name prior to getting listed there; it simply is under NDA. Rest assured, we will list on multiple CEX!
Demirel (Mod): This put an end to our one of many future AMAs! Thank you all guests for these elaborate and insightful answers. I hope you all enjoyed it and it answered some of your doubts!
