Just visiting: An interview with Kuan Luo
TypeThursday sat down with product designer at Etsy, Kuan Luo, about her introduction to type design, systems, vulnerability, internet harassment, working with others, and making kind work. It was a pleasure interviewing her and we know you are going to love it.
Introduction into Typeface Design
TypeThursday: Thanks for meeting up! My first question is, since you’re not a type person, what got you interested about typography and typeface design?
Kuan Luo: When I was in college Syracuse University, I studied graphic design. One time, Michael Beirut came to give a talk on his work. It was an amazing lecture.
Afterward I emailed him and asked what he thought was the biggest weakness of graphic design students then.
To paraphrase Michael, a lack of solid understanding of type was his answer. And I really took it to heart.
After I graduated, I moved to Brooklyn and starting working for Objective Subjective, Aaron Carámbula was a year one Type@Cooper student —
TT: Yea, he was in my class at Cooper Union.
KL: So, yea. I would see him working late in the office on his typeface, Marais. I saw the meticulous process and thought maybe that it wasn’t for me, but I was still curious. Later on, I got to know other designs in the community like Alonzo [Felix] and Mike [Fortress]. And they were also studying type design at Cooper, so I went to their graduation shows. The work was all really beautiful.
I wanted to take a stab at it, so I took Summer Stone’s one semester workshop course at Type@Cooper. Nothing crazy but it was amazing stuff; I loved it.
Working with Others
TT: That’s what I appreciate about you. You’re willing to go outside your comfort zone, into an domain that isn’t home to you, and looking for relationships how different domains could relate. It reminds me of your Medium post as a solo design working with engineers. I could imagine, how to communicate and work with these people outside your own domain requires that approach.
KL: As I work with more and more people, I learned the trickiest part is to teach the village to fish. Rather than doing everything yourself — which is unscalable— I learned that I need to share my skills to everyone in one way or another. As the team grows, you’ll spend more time at communicating. When I work with engineers, I only talk with them about the project for a little bit, they’ll do 90 percent of the work, then they come back and we touch it up. That means 90% of the experience will be done by someone that’s not me. I realized I would have to teach our engineers how to think like a designer. And I’m really impressed by what the team has done. I feel like now they don’t even need me. [laughter]
TT: Yes, it’s a mutual understanding of the project. To teach someone how to fish, is to allow them to think through the process to a space we all agree to.
KL: Instead of meeting at the middle of the bridge. What’s the more powerful is actually being able to travel to the other side, and see the world from the eyes of others.
Vulnerability
TT: Makes me think of vulnerability, a topic you like to talk about.
KL: Vulnerability is something that feels very scary to talk about, but if you’re used to it; it just becomes a part of you. You ever notice in conferences everyone is looking at their phones? I remember someone saying you should just go and talk to whoever is on the phone.
TT: They want to fill the gap.
KL: They’re just as scared as I am to talking to people. They’ll be so happy if you would walk up and start a conversation. The phone is just an excuse; an escape from awkwardness. That’s the problem of vulnerability. We don’t want to be vulnerable, but unless you are, you really can’t appreciate life.
TT: Instead of meeting at the middle of the bridge, you are able to go to the other side and see things from their point of view. It takes a certain amount of courage and confidence to enter a domain that is not your own. From my perspective that’s how it all ties together.
KL: I think so. If you’re seeing the world from someone else’s eyes, your own believes will be challenged. You think the world goes this way, then you discover another way of seeing the world, and the discovery shakes your believes.
TT: Yes, that unresolved tension.
KL: That’s not a comfortable feeling. Something you believe in is being struck down. You go “Damn it! I thought this was how things are.” [laughter]
TT: “I thought I had it all figured out!” [laughter]
KL: Right. You realize your entire world is shaken. But that also opens up so many possibilities. It makes your rethink what you believe in. It makes you more understanding. In a way it makes you loose and that’s a good thing. I think of an open mind as a dough. If you shake a concrete ball and drop it on the floor, it’ll just shatter. But a dough is resilient. It can take different shapes and forms without changing its nature.
TT: A big problem I see — in all industries — is that they stay with their circle of what they know. They’re not willing or able to expand outside that. That’s what makes you stand out to me. You didn’t have to claim typeface design as your new domain, you’re just visiting. You’re like “Tell me about it. Awesome.” And you got from that a larger context. You came from a journalistic point of view, then into design, then into UX, to now — not sure where you’re going — It’s like improv comedy and marathon running. [laughter] It’s very appropriate for you. I remember I met you when you were visiting Portland! It’s literally how I met you.
KL: Oh my god, I love Portland.
TT: It’s the fucking best. By the way, how was XOXO?
KL: It was amazing! Mind-blowingly amazing.
TT: What was your favorite part about it?
Design Kindly
KL: My favorite part of XOXO was the overarching theme of anti-digital harassment. It opened a new world to me. I have never partaken nor been a victim of internet harassment. I was very ignorant about it. The talks on the subject made me realize how easy it is for people to harass on the internet. I wouldn’t say something rude to you, because you’re right in front of me. But for some reason having a gap — a screen — that blocks a real person’s face makes people say whatever they want, without thinking the weight of their words. That hit me a lot.
It should be the way we think about our work as designers. Is our work kind? Where is it going to be used, how it is going to be used, is this going to serve a good purpose for other people? Is your work is going to be used kindly? When you are designing, are you warm towards your work?
TT: Let’s drill down on what that word kind means. From my perspective — what you’re telling me — it’s about the rejection of other people’s humanity. Treating people as commodities or stereotypes; people as aberrations. Not acknowledging other people’s nuisances. Is that a fair definition?
KL: I would say so. On a deeper level, how can our work be kind? What does it mean to make a kind typeface? What is a kind website? Attempting to answer those questions will spark more questions around how we treat our work. For example, I sometimes look at the architecture of a building, and think “it’s a kind building.” I think about XOXO as a very kind conference. It was slow, chill, well-thought out. No one is stressed out. That kind of designed objects and experiences is a goal we should strive for.
TT: That reminds me of the book, The Power Broker; Robert Moses.
KL: I don’t know about that.
TT: Robert Moses was an urban planner for New York City. Contemporary urban planners believe the decay of NY in the 60' s and 70's came a lot from his interventions. Designing a city that became unkind to its residents. The main reason was because the people living in NY were not thought of by Robert Moses. It was about the people who drove into the city; their experience mattered. Whose concerns are going to occupy our time and focus. I do think there is a tension at times within design about this. For example, I look at a website and the type is really small and has a standoff tone. Like “Oh, we’re so much better than you.”
KL: Yes, we project attitudes onto websites. Certain websites immediately say to you, “You’re not good enough for my website.” But other websites are completely the opposite. I’m curious what does it mean to make kind work? I don’t know.
TT: I think that ties into the vulnerability point. A lot of times the need to be exclusive comes from a energy of egoism; to make myself feel good, I gotta put someone else down; My value comes from relating to other people, in a destructive way, to make myself feel better. The art of being vulnerable — to me — is about finding your value without doing that.… This is hard stuff!
KL: It’s also about insecurity. If you’re insecure, it’s hard to be vulnerable. If you’re crumbling inside, you have nothing to offer. I notice I become this very narrow person — I shrink — and only think about myself in moments of doubt. But in other moments when I’m happier and kinder, I am this much bigger bubble that include other concerns and people. The narrowness or expansion comes and goes. It’s never steady. It’s a constant process. But hopefully while we’re expanding and contracting, we’re expanding a little bit more each time to include more people in that circle.
TT: That’s how I see everything tying together. The idea you’re on a journey, walking through — visiting — other domains. And for a moment you were in the type domain — That’s how we met — and now we’re friends. Even as you’ve gone and done other things.
KL: When you’re done with the visit, it’s not like you just forget about it. What you have learned becomes part of you. Now I have a very different view of typeface designers. I know how they work; I see the pain of it. I also have a deep appreciation for good type. I know how much work has been put into it. Without the journey and the visit to type, I wouldn’t have this appreciation in me now. You walk away with empathy; the ability to relate to different people.
TT: I think that’s a great way to wrap up our chat. Kuan, thank you so much for your time.
KL: Thank you! This was really fun!
Kuan Luo designs interface and systems. Occasionally, she writes & codes. Follow her thoughts in her bi-weekly essays here
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