You Guys Are Loveably Pedantic: An Interview with Author Mike Monteiro

TypeThursday sat down with colorful speaker and author Mike Monteiro. We talked about how UX can relate to type design and what UX designers look for in type. A great chat with a designer outside the type design world.

Should Designers Care About Their Work?

TypeThursday: Mike, thank you for coming for this. I really appreciate it.

Mike Monteiro: Pleasure to be here.

TT: Great. So, I had you come in today because I noticed a trend in your talks I’ve seen online a lot lately are the idea of partnership, the idea of responsibility to one’s craft and the idea of a designer’s possibility to a larger audience. Why does that matter to you? Why is that important to you, those ideas?

MM: Well, I think the better question is why wouldn’t it matter to you? I mean, it’s kind of weird that you have to — and this isn’t just you. I’ve been in the design business for a long time and there seems to be this idea that you have to convince designers to actually give a shit about the kind of effect their work has on the world. And if you were to apply that same test to any other profession, it would be weird, right? So would you ever consider having to ask a doctor, “Why wouldn’t you kill this patient?” “Why wouldn’t you want to heal this person?”

TT: Wow. That’s understandable.

If you’re not paying attention to the effects that your work have on the world around you, then you are not doing your job correctly.

MM: If you take your car into a mechanic and your mechanic finds that your brakes are shot, but doesn’t want to tell you that the brakes are shot or he doesn’t want to have to charge your for the brakes or he doesn’t feel like doing the brakes, that would be criminal if he let you out of that shop with dysfunctional, non-working brakes. Or unsafe brakes. And we would freak out finding out that other professions were doing this.

And yet as designers, we’re willing to accept that somehow giving a crap about the effect our work has on people is a super-special extra thing that we do. And then when we do it, we start putting ourselves on a pedestal and it’s like, “I’m changing the world!” It’s just called a job. This is the job that we signed up for and these are all core parts of that job.

TT: Yeah.

MM: Making sure that you’re not making things that are harmful out in the world is part of the job. And paying attention to stuff like that isn’t extra. It isn’t anything special. It’s just what the job entails. So if I have any message for designers, it’s that: This is part of your job. If you’re not paying attention to the effects that your work have on the world around you, then you are not doing your job correctly.

TT: Well, you asked the question, “Why not?” Why do designers not think this way? It would seem to me — and my perspective is — it’s the context in terms of people seeing themselves as an island unto themselves as opposed to part of a larger context and a larger story about what the work they do and how that affects people, but also the idea of them working as parts of a union, that we have an obligation to teach what we learn to others, passing it on to someone else.

MM: Well, that’s a totally different issue. I’m not sure how we got onto the topic of teaching things to others, which I’m happy to talk about, but I don’t see how we segued into it.

TT: Well we segued into it — and it’s the idea again of a larger perspective, both in terms externally to our clients and how we do our work, but also internally within our profession to ourselves. That’s what I meant by that.

When you’ve got designers out there spreading bad impressions of what to expect from designers, that’s terrible.

Teaching Clients to Work with Designers

MM: So we need to understand what our profession is actually responsible for. And how we should behave as professionals, not just individuals, because how we behave — We teach clients how to work with designers every time we work with a client. So when I work with a client, I need to explain what I bring to the table, what they get by hiring me.

It’s this view of design that is like this: It’s problem solving, how I see design. It’s problem solving. You tell me what your problem is and we work together to fix it. You have your area of expertise and I have my area of expertise and because our areas of expertise are complementary and both necessary to fixing this problem, then we can do it.

And every once in a while, you’ll get a client or a prospective client who has come in having worked with a designer before and they’re like, “No, no, no. I just want you to do what I tell you to do, like the last designer I worked with.” So, now I have to work harder to disabuse that client that that’s what design is. And he didn’t get it because he was ignorant. He got that from a designer.

TT: That impression. His concept for how design is came from working with someone else.

MM: Right. So that impression of what designers do shouldn’t be coming from designers. It’s understandable that it would come from non-designers, because they’re not in the craft. But when you’ve got designers out there spreading bad impressions of what to expect from designers, that’s terrible.

Design is furthering the understanding of how we interact with the world. And if it’s done badly, then we’re not interacting well with the world.

TT: Yeah. Why is that? Though that matters to you for the obvious reason that it makes your job harder working with clients, correct?

MM: Yeah, it makes my job harder and it makes the type of design that’s ultimately out in the world worse. If you’ve got designers out there who are not practicing their craft correctly, they’re doing shit work. And I don’t want to see shit work in the world, because ultimately people are going to interact with this. They’re going to have terrible experiences. They’re not going to be able to do the stuff that they’re coming online to do.

Design is furthering the understanding of how we interact with the world. And if it’s done badly, then we’re not interacting well with the world. And I have very little patience for designers who are out there not doing the job right, screwing up an opportunity to make the world a more useful place, a better place. And also making my job harder when I’m trying to do it.

I don’t want to see shit work in the world, because ultimately people are going to interact with this. They’re going to have terrible experiences.

TT: Yeah.

MM: I want those designers to go find something else to do, something else that they love. And get out of my field.

UX’s Overlap with Type Design

TT: And just to clarify your field, it’s specifically the field of design, of UX, web-design UX. You feel like it’s an issue particularly for your field?

MM: No, well, I try to speak within the UX field because that’s the field that I understand, that’s the field that I work in, and that’s the field that I’m actually getting my feet dirty in. I try not to speak for other people. I don’t know what’s going on in other design fields. I don’t want to assume what’s going on in other design fields, but I’ve got a pretty good idea of what’s going on in this one because I interact with it every day.

What we do is related. We use words when we do our work. Words are made of type.

TT: You work within it. And that’s why I brought you in, because I think you speak very strong within your discipline of design, that arena of design, issues and pressures within your audience, within your world.

MM: And I claim to know nothing about anybody else’s discipline.

TT: No, totally. Likewise over here. I mean talk to me about UX and I can’t really help you very much.

I’m generally looking for type that’s easy to read and understandable and flexible and the more of that that I see, the happier I get.

MM: But I think what we do is related. I mean, there’s certainly an overlap.

TT: Yeah. What do you think the overlap is, Mike?

MM: I mean we use words when we do our work.

TT: This is true.

MM: Words are made of type. You design type. Correct?

TT: Correct.

MM: And I’m generally looking for type that’s easy to read and understandable and flexible and the more of that that I see, the happier I get. And I imagine that there’s also an issue in the type world. I remember coming up as a designer in the 90s and it was the time of very ugly type.

TT: The grunge era.

I’m looking for who’s going to be using this site I’m working on. What are their eyes like? And I’m 48-years-old now so my eyesight is shit.

MM: The grunge era. That’s when Fontographer came out and anybody that opened up Fontographer could make a typeface, which is really great. I mean it’s really great whenever a field is opened up like that. You get some amazing stuff out of it. You also get some incredibly ugly stuff. And I’m willing to take the bad with the good to open field up like that, as long as we don’t lose perspective about what’s bad and what’s good. And I think during the grunge era we saw a lot of shit, which is to be expected. And ultimately something like that corrects itself. And type was going through an era of personal expression. The 90s were a very anti-legibility time. And now’s a very legibility time.

And when I’m looking for type, I’m looking for who’s going to be using this site I’m working on. What are their eyes like? And I’m 48-years-old now so my eyesight is shit.

TT: Do you get really annoyed when the type size is way too small?

MM: I don’t get annoyed. I leave.

TT: There you go.

MM: Which should concern people more. Annoyance is when you have to do something that is hard, but the human eye at some point just cannot do things anymore that it used to be able to do. So if I see 11-point type on a webpage, I’m not even going to bother because I know that within 15 minutes, I’m going to have a huge headache, even if I can read any of it.

TT: What other considerations do you think about when you’re selecting your type?

There is nothing you can’t do with Helvetica. It’s an all-purpose typeface. It has never let me down.

MM: I want it to be legible first and foremost. If it’s not legible, there’s no step two. Then I take a look at what I’m trying to achieve with a brand. Like what’s the voice of my client or organization? Are they fun? Are they new? Are they exciting? Are they talking to the youth? Are they more conservative? Are they talking to financial executives? You’ve got to pick a type that goes with the voice. All of this stuff has to have the client’s voice in it. So you have to pick a typeface that sounds like the voice you’re hearing in your head.

If we keep talking about typefaces, I’m going to run out of things to talk about very quickly. Because as far as I’m concerned, there is nothing you can’t do with Helvetica. It’s an all-purpose typeface. It comes in every weight you need. And it has never let me down.

TT: I believe you have a painting series where you use Helvetica.

MM: I do. Yeah, Helvetica Bold, because it’s easier to paint than regular.

TT: You were never convinced by Neue Haas Grotesk, that recent release?

One of the things I really enjoy about hanging out with typographers is they will sit there and they will debate like ridiculous nuances about things that don’t matter to anybody else, which is kind of great. I’m always excited to see people like that.

MM: I didn’t see too much of a difference, but I’m sure there is. Like one of the things I really enjoy about hanging out with typographers is, one, they drink like journalists and, two, they will sit there and they will debate like ridiculous nuances and it’s really one of the things I love about hanging out with people who are all in the same craft, is they will get into fist fights about things that don’t matter to anybody else, which is kind of great.

You guys are incredibly pedantic and there’s something very lovable about you.

And you see it with UX professionals too. And ultimately, this shit doesn’t matter to anybody. But it really matters to them, and that’s pretty great. I’m always excited to see people like that.

TT: I would say the most pedantic profession is typeface designer.

MM: You guys are incredibly pedantic and there’s something very lovable about you.

TT: That covers the points I wanted to talk about with you today. Thank you so much.

An excerpt of Mike Monteiro’s most recent book, “You’re My Favorite Client” is available to read on A List Apart. Read it Here

TypeThursday is a monthly Type Design meet-up in Brooklyn, NY.
Like this interview? Recommend this article.