“I’m not buying it. Show me that I cannot do it.”
Mathilda ‘Tilly’ Stroosnijder, a peacekeeping veteran and gender adviser, reflects upon gender-related barriers in the security sector and shares her tips and inspiration to overcome them in the powerful story below.
This interview is part of the #TakeAStep campaign of UNITAR, learn more about it here.
Interviewer: Let’s start with the first question: tell us a bit about your background and current position.
T: I’m a military and police veteran. I started in 1991 in the police service in the Netherlands, and soon wanted to work abroad at [an international level. However, at that time, police in the Netherlands did not participate in international missions, so in 2002, I joined the military in order to be deployed internationally.
In total, I have been deployed to 10 missions. After 15 years, I joined the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, where I continued my job as a Gender Advisor, and was deployed to international peacekeeping operations. My last mission was in Palestine. After that, I started to work as an independent Gender Advisor.
Currently, I’m providing coaching services on a full-time basis. I focus on women’s empowerment and work a lot with victims of human trafficking. I also mentor and coach women who are working in peacekeeping operations.
I: Do you coach only military or police women, or women in general?
T: Both! We use different kinds of approaches: the type of approach and communication style is crucial in order to build confidence and trust. The purpose of coaching is discovering how you empower yourself, and how to make your vision happen. What is your passion? What is your inner drive? What makes you happy?
I: I find it very interesting — the fact that it’s a woman coaching women. Especially in our organizational culture, where many structures have been built around men. In your experience, do women need to adopt traditionally masculine behaviours in order to lead?
I’ve always said, no, I am me. I don’t need to act like a man to be good at my job. I have to embrace my authentic self because it shows that you are at the core of your power. You can create your vision, this is who I want to be, this is what I represent and that’s what I try to do. When you speak on women and men reaching out as roles models, in my case they were Dutch, it is important to ask the right questions.
When I found them, I would asked them, ‘what do I need to do to get to where you are?’ and ‘would you like to mentor me?’. I had both men and women as mentors because they each identify different solutions to problems through a different lens.
I: Why did you decide to join the security sector?
T : When I lived in Croatia, I worked as a tourist manager. Then, the war started in 1991. My Dutch passport represented the difference between war and peace. I could leave my friends, my job in Croatia, or former Yugoslavia at that time, and go back to the Netherlands.
I came to realize that because I was born in a different part of the world; I could live in peace but yet my friends were calling me while the bombs were going down. Families were lost and people died.
I knew about the rape cases before they were in the newspapers. That was when everything became personal, and I wanted to join the police force to support the people I left behind. And so I did.
I : When you decided to join the security sector, did you face any barriers visible or invisible? And if yes, what was this barrier and what steps did you take to overcome them?
T: There are so many barriers and so many challenges, but it is the way that you look at them. When you face those challenges and deal with them, it makes you stronger. That’s how I look at it. You can sit and say, ‘I’m not going to do anything and leave it’ or you can say, ‘what do I need to do to solve my problem?’. I think that we, as women faced different problems 20 years ago than that the new generations are facing now.
You need to have the courage to face those challenges, and ask yourself, ‘can I do it myself?’ or ‘do I need somebody to help me to solve it?’ This has always been my strategy, I faced them as I knew it would make me stronger and, I mobilized people around me who supported me, experts, family, and friends.
If that was not the right moment to solve it, then I knew that over time probably I could solve it. Be determined. Don’t stop, don’t say no, don’t quit, and don’t give in. Those are my basic rules.
I: 20 years ago, what was the reaction of your family and friends when you told them you were joining the police?
T: I come from a military family where my grandfather, father and uncles were in the police and military services. Everybody was in uniform and having grown up in that environment, it shaped my character.
After my experiences in former Yugoslavia, I wanted to give something back. I was 22, when I applied, and I had done some research on why I wanted to sign up and if I could fit in to that subculture. For all those things, it was an immediate yes.
In the beginning, I didn’t face any obstacles. It came later, when I started to rethink my career, and look at what I wanted to do within the police. I was thinking outside of the box, I was not thinking about a horizontal career, but a vertical one.
I wanted to expand at the international level, and that’s when I began to face big challenges because the system wasn’t designed for that. At the political level, many people were supportive of having the police involved within the international peacekeeping operations while others while others were disagreeing saying, ‘No, it’s not our task because it’s [the police] a national organization.’ My response has always been that criminality doesn’t have borders and we needed to participate. That particular concept was something completely new over 20 years ago.
I : I think that the message that you’re giving here, it’s something very important. Understand your “why” and understand what motivates you.
It is not like any other job because it comes with the baggage of culture, with a set of rules. So, you really need to understand what motivates you and be aware of the fact that it won’t be easy. I like what you are saying.
T: Work around it or work with the problem. If the system is not ready for change, then you have to work around it and wait.
This changes over time.
Within the next five years, the police were starting to join international missions and then suddenly, all doors were opening.
I: Why you think that it’s important to have more women in the security forces? What difference do they make?
T: I used to laugh about this question.
Do we really need to ask this in 2020?
We have a community, we have men, women, children, elderly and all sorts of people. If you want to serve and protect them in an appropriate way, in an effective way, with all their different needs, you must have men and women in the police.
Do we really need to raise the question? Why do we need women? Are we asking ourselves, why do we need men in the police force? Maybe we should. You know, I mean, that’s not even a question.
I laugh when they ask me, do we need women? Of course, you need women. I realise that those questions have been raised, but not anymore. In 2020, we know that there is no question about it. We must have them in order to properly serve our communities we need women because they have different lenses.
I: I mean, there is always a feminine and masculine dimension in everyone and so I agree with you. Maybe we should just stop asking this question because by asking it we somehow open the possibility that the answer is [that] we don’t need women. Instead let’s ask men this question.
T: I tend to avoid those questions because I don’t have to defend myself as to why I’m working in peace and security as a woman, because I need to be there. There is no question about it.
I: No, absolutely. I like this approach. I’m going to remove the question from the list.
T: Please do so.
I: I like this next question, because I would have wanted someone to give me some recommendations at that time. What would you recommend to a young woman or girl if they would like to follow a similar path to yours?
T: First of all, If you want to work in the security sector, do the proper research, and be honest with yourself. Are you willing to make those steps? Are you willing to sacrifice? These questions also applies to men because we are in it together when situations become difficult.
And you are in risk for your own life. You must realize that and if you’re willing to do so, and you fully understand [this, then] follow your passion, follow your inner compass, and go for it. And go and find the people you trust [and] feel confident with and ask them ‘do you think I fit in this job?’
Go inside of a police organization and ask, can I interview some people? Or have a meeting and try to find out whether you fit or not in this job. That’s the first thing I would do. Read, do background research and find people who are willing to support you in this.
We need to have mentors around us, and my biggest fan was my father. He always said, ‘if you want to do it, do it’, and I did. I had reached out to people in my family, in my friends’ network and then in my society. Have meetings and discussions with different kinds of people, even with your pastor.
It’s a big step because you put yourself at risk and for example, maybe you are planning to be a mother. How does it affect you? Are you going to leave your kids at home and be at risk every day? Do you understand it’s a different job than being at your desk, behind your computer?
You are on the streets with a weapon and in risky situations where you can lose your life. We go back again and again, to the point we mentioned before, be conscious of your “why”, because you are choosing something that is not like most jobs.
You can deal with a lot of these things but you must be strong about why you’re doing this.
I would really encourage everyone to ask questions, not only before, but throughout. Although, I know people don’t like it if you start asking questions especially in our organization.
It’s important to question, because I feel like these organizational structures have opened up to women, but they have not opened up entirely. There are still a lot of these stereotypes of the roles of women and the role of a man.
And these are the kinds of things that if you want to change the system, you have to question and prove to me that I cannot do it. If you can prove it, fine. I will just sit back.
But where is it written that you must go just up to here, and you cannot go beyond? It’s not written anywhere.
There is no regulation that says that. So really question the system, because otherwise it won’t change.
Different organizations have similar problems. But then you also must understand how this organization ticks, because you can give advice to a Dutch colleague and it is perfectly okay. But if I gave the same advice to a Palestinian or Afghan policewoman, it could be dangerous. You must know the environment and you must know where they are at the moment.
So not all advice is one size fits all. You’ll have to be very flexible and have good listening skills when you are working as an advisor in the host countries.
Also, as you mentioned, curiosity. Keep asking, be creative but approach it with a lot of humour.
Think outside of the box, be open, trust, build confidence, understand, and respect where they are. That is key because they can feel the successes around them about gender equality or having women participating. Then suddenly the tension is going down, and more things are possible. We all need to be very conscious of the context in which we work. Sometimes it is even more than the structure itself that must change.
Start asking very simple questions from a very humble perspective, don’t be afraid.
I was really afraid of asking questions just because I didn’t want to sound like the silly one but by asking questions, you can overcome some of your insecurity. Again, it’s only you that can be very sensitive to the context that you have around you.
So, it’s not like me telling you which questions to ask, but knowing what is the environment? What are the people around you saying? And that’s where I think support from other women is really important.
I: Who are the stakeholders? Are there other persons around the woman that makes this choice to support her?
T: Yes, the stakeholders are crucial. It’s your family, it’s the community, it can be your pastor, a life coach or it can be a psychologist who can support you.
Are you entering this male-dominated industry, as a woman? It can be different, and you must learn to cope with it. What kind of coping mechanisms do you have? Probably we have a different approach in our coping systems, and you must understand and to know them and to strengthen them.
Maybe you need to learn new skills, so having a life coach could be excellent. It’s not only about having an education in this field. You also need spiritual, and emotional intelligence.
Therefore, I think you need a good mixture of young people, elderly people, and experts surrounding you. Resources where you can tap in whenever you need them. In my case, have a lifeline to a psychologist, and a life coach. I can call them up anytime I want and ask them for advice.
If you don’t know the answer, there’s no shame to identify having a weakness. I don’t need to be only strong. I can cry. I can feel frustrated. I can be powerless. I can be overwhelmed. We can all be, but it’s the way you’re dealing with it. That’s the key.
What do you have around you to support you? I think that’s crucial, especially in peace and security because we encounter death. I have guided people into death four or five times in my career.
How are you dealing with that? How do you speak with parents, when they’ve lost their child in an accident? How are you going to explain that to them? How do you treat victims of human trafficking or prostitutes? I have not been in their shoes, but they are women, and I am a woman and I try to understand what they encounter, and I try to find support so they can have a better life.
And this is what I love about my job. That people trust me, and they open up to me. They speak about their most delicate things and then we can try to find a solution and if I cannot find a solution, somebody else maybe can protect and empower them or re-empower them.
For example, we do the domestic violence project in the missions. We encourage women to come forward. That’s part of our job. And then we bring those women into shelters. But what are they going to do in the shelter?
It’s temporary. What is their life afterwards? Are we going to victimize them again? Because they can’t return properly to their families? Maybe they have to go out of the country in order to get a new life.
We’re supporting them. It’s a circle. It needs to be. I prepared the program for domestic violence, but I also want there to be accountability and responsibility. That way when those women come forward, they have some kind of future perspective.
The most important thing is that these women can come out of the cycle of violence and have a new future. Making sure that they don’t have to go back to jail or another shelter but providing the support network with stakeholders and their communities. So, it’s really not about the quick fixes.
Those women are victimized by our system, and that’s the same not only for those who suffer from domestic violence, but also for the children, and it’s especially worse for missing children.
But then I go to the trafficked women. It’s not only about putting the program in place and ‘that’s it, I’ve done my job’. No, you have another responsibility. You need to be accountable because yet again, they’ll come to you, and you need to help them. You protect them, but ultimately, they’ll go back to being in a nomadic situation again.
Eventually, they will begin to take their lives in their own hands, and we keep them out of a victimized situation. With any intervention, it goes beyond the examples presented. If you believe that you can predict an exact timeline of your intervention, from beginning to end, and yet expect that everyone lives happily ever after like a fairy tale. I’m sorry but that is never the case.
When it ends, is when the real challenge kicks in from the smallest intervention on an individual level to the big peacekeeping missions. So much of it is about setting up the mission and running the mission.
When the mission is over, what are we leaving behind us? What I love is when I leave a mission, and they don’t need me anymore, I have colleagues who will take over my role.
They will give advice, provide mentorship, and still work to implement the same roadmap on gender. I’m looking for sustainability, I’m looking for local ownership, and having a system set in place that allow for them to kick off this roadmap on their own. It’s a matter of time that they’ll come into different levels and mainstream gender into their own organizations.
I believe that it’s the better way to approach it, because there will be situations where you as the trainer/ specialist will be in a culture foreign to your own and others have a different way of doing things. You are expert in your own count, and I am an expert in mine. Do not take things in your own hands if you have no context because you have not grown up in that country and you don’t know how they operate.
You must listen to the people who are on the ground because they serve as the experts. It is important to accept there can be different way of doing things. When you come to the mission, you can’t copy and paste a shortcut on these topics because you will do more harm that way.
I: What inspires you every day to do your job?
T: I like working with humans and I like it when they are making their steps into their dreams.
I can say that I’m living my dream and doing what I am passionate about. When I see that people are those first steps into their passion, even though they feel a bit insecure, they still listen to their own voice. This is beautiful to watch. Do what makes you happy whether that is being a police officer, working in a hotel or being a mechanic.
I’m a practitioner. I have no PhD but we need people with those PhDs that can support me in doing my job. I think that the biggest present you can give to yourself is that you do the things you love to do because life is too short.
So, don’t waste any time and stay healthy. When you work in peace and security, try to balance your job with keeping yourself healthy and looking after yourself.
There is a need to put in place career development within the system for women. If you are not able to do certain tasks, roles or work in a specific department and believe that you’re not doing the best job you can do because you believe you’re not strong enough.
This matter can be recognized, and you have the possibility to move to different position such as in training, in coaching or observing for organized crime. There are so many opportunities where you could move from the front line into the second line.
But you don’t need to quit the forces. There are so many women after a certain number of years, that are leaving the forces, and I believe this is a reality that needs to be taken into account not only for women but men as well.
If it’s about being fit for purpose. Again, one of those things where asking questions is essential and asking what your other options are that are not only quitting.
Men never question themselves like women do, because if they apply for a job, they say, ‘Can I do that? Do I fulfil this? Even if it’s false?’ But women are far more correct and say, ‘Can I do all those things?’
What we should begin to do is rather than training women to be less insecure, we should start training them to start questioning when they apply for jobs.
And the thing that I always say is that I believe that the work needs to start from us as well. We cannot just expect for someone to come in and do the work for us. If there is a real motivation behind joining the forces, I need to start doing what I need to do.
To be able to move forward without waiting for someone else to do it for us. I know it’s challenging and I definitely respect that, but I think it’s part of the game. Role models are key in this. If you can identify yourself with a role model whether that is from a movie or, and whether that is another police woman.
Position yourself that way you have an opportunity to speak with them and allow them to inspire you, to influence you, and to mentor you. It is important to feel the support behind you because that makes a big difference.
On some issues, we go very fast and on others we are still stuck on for 20 to 30 years ago. My father always says ‘you still don’t realize we are working in a male dominated field. You can only go as far as we allow you to go’.
This is the reality in many countries. There are men who are openly saying ‘we don’t need women, we can do without, because they are just troublemakers.’
There are plenty of men who still believe that women aren’t needed, and they don’t belong to the force because they don’t understand our place is in protection. Half of the work population is female. I sometimes think that we are putting ourselves in a second-grade position and that we are victimizing ourselves because we keep asking ourselves questions as to whether we should be there.
Those questions shouldn’t have to be even raised. When I’m in the mission area, I’m always questioning, ‘where are the women in your force?’
I keep asking this, and then they come to the conclusion that you want to have security for the entire community because people have different needs.
I think that there is still this mentality that this is not the place for women. This is too dangerous for a woman.
There is this a very condescending attitude of, ‘I need to protect you’. You don’t need to protect me because I protect myself. I don’t want to put all the burden on women because if the system is the way it is, it’s for a reason we haven’t created it like that. And whoever created it has to change it. I have the same entitlement to be there as much as man has the entitlement to be there.
If we both have the competencies to be there, it is independent from our gender. Can you fulfil the tasks? Fantastic. We as women have to push for that, and we shouldn’t be questioned about our place and role.
I’m not buying it. Show me that I cannot do it.
