A Conversation with David Bronner, the CEO of a Soap Company Funding Psychedelics’ Drug Reform
David Bronner’s company collected $190 million in sales in 2020. But he rarely talks about that. Bronner, the CEO (Cosmic Engagement Officer) of California-based Dr. Bronner’s Magic Soaps, is one of America’s most outspoken advocates for psychedelic therapy.
Dr. Bronner’s [named after David Bronner’s grandfather, who started the company] is advertised as the “top-selling soap in the U.S. natural marketplace.” It sells soap, hand sanitizer, lotions, and body balms. Dr. Bronner’s prioritizes sustainable manufacturing, promoting their products as having “no synthetic preservatives, no foaming agents, and no detergents.” They have separately also advocated for plant-based wellness through various philanthropic initiatives, the most notable of which is their push for psychedelics’ drug reform.
In recent years, Dr. Bronner’s has committed $10 million to the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies [MAPS], an organization whose board Bronner serves on. The company also donates extensively to political campaigns, including $2 million to Measure 109 to legalize psilocybin therapy in Oregon, and $500,000 to Initiative 81 to decriminalize psychedelic plants in Washington D.C. Both these measures passed last November.
Bronner says these commitments are donations; he says the company has not benefited financially from them, nor does he plan for Dr. Bronner’s to expand into products related to psychedelic therapy. However, Bronner has opinions about how exactly psychedelics should be made accessible to users.
Bronner has long argued for specific routes that should be taken with legislation, research, and development in psychedelics. Recently, Bronner spoke out against Compass Pathways, a UK-based, Peter Thiel-backed biotech company that is seeking FDA approval for its psilocybin drugs. Compass is publicly traded, valued at $1.3 billion, with most of its valuation stemming from the potential for its COMP360 psilocybin therapy, currently in Phase IIb clinical trials for treatment resistant depression. Bronner and the Healing Advocacy Fund [a nonprofit led by Measure 109 campaign staff] have alleged that Compass Pathways has tried to stop Measure 109 from being implemented.
A spokesperson for Compass denied these claims in a statement to West Dose: “The people of Oregon voted in favor of the measure, reflecting the huge unmet need in mental health care. We respect and understand that, and it is not our intent to do anything to change it.”
In an interview with West Dose, Bronner spoke about his rationale and strategy behind psychedelics reform, and what he hopes for in the future.
[Note: This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity. Any text in parentheticals was added by West Dose for explanatory purposes; they are not the direct words of the speaker.]
Your title is Cosmic Engagement Officer. When and why did you make that decision?
Five years ago, my brother Mike Bronner — who’s 50/50 with me — was vice president. I was CEO and president. When I promoted him to president, he didn’t want to be CEO, so we came up with Cosmic Engagement Officer.
We’re not a normal company, we very much have a mission in the world. My grandfather, Dr. Bronner, founded us as a non-profit religious organization to promote peace on earth and unity across religious and ethnic divides. We’re all children of the same transcendent source. The Cosmic Engagement Officer is honoring my grandad’s vision.
How do people in the business world react when you introduce yourself as Cosmic Engagement officer?
People think it’s fun. I think they understand Dr. Bronner’s has a pretty unique role in the world. Depending on who it is, I’ll just go “CEO,” if we’re not getting into it. It was actually Ryan, our director of PR, he thought it up and I thought, “oh that’s pretty fun, we’ll do that.”
Let’s talk about psychedelics. You’ve talked publicly about the psychedelic trips you’ve had over the course of your life. How many have there been?
Oh I don’t know, like 50 maybe.
And when was your most recent one?
Gosh, well I would say, maybe a month ago.
What do you remember about it?
You know, just being deep in the heart. I’ve had friends pass away in the past few months. Just really appreciating life and death, and the rebirth of life, and feeling that ancestral energy that’s with us all the time. I’m not in a space here to do justice to the insights.
We’re just the leaves of the tree. Everything that’s alive will be dead. That force is just so mega and amazing. Just touching that source energy a little bit.
How often do you use psychedelics?
I would distinguish celebrations from ceremony. Sometimes, it’ll be a friend’s 40th birthday, and we’ll do some MDMA [a drug also known as “Ecstasy” or “Molly”], which isn’t as powerful as some other medicines. I just wait for invitations to flow.
With COVID, I haven’t really been doing much ceremony. In November, we’re going to be going down to Colombia and drinking Ayahuasca [an Indigenous tea with hallucinogenic effects] with Indigenous leaders and learning from them.
Traditionally, once a quarter is a good rhythm for me.
What was the moment you decided that you wanted to point company resources towards psychedelics?
Back in Amsterdam in 1995, that’s when I fully appreciated the power of these medicines. Initially, we put hemp-seed oil in soaps in 1999, I think we first started giving money to MAPS in the mid 2000s. I always knew I was going to be doing this.
And–
Just before I forget, when you asked me about psychedelic trips… My first mushroom experience, I remember looking down at my arm and saying: well at a quantum level, there’s one energy between me and the world. When I eat and I poop, the world is pouring in through me. I’m not even the same blood from month-to-month. I’m part of a much bigger reality process. I had my first unity experience, understanding the whole world is alive.
I mean this respectfully: For those who haven’t had experiences with psychedelics, do they look at you funny when you talk about these abstract concepts?
I think people respect it because it’s first-person experience. What I just shared there; people can get it. People can understand my cells are being turned over every day, on a common-sense level. Other experiences, talking about your dreams, people are like “what?” I think it’s important to testify to our experiences and talk about spirit, and the spirit world.
Back to your investment in psychedelics. Why are you doing it? Why is this so important to you?
Psychedelics really threw my life inside out. I was working through a lot, working through false constructs of self related to gender and sexuality. What I experienced is what I would want everyone to experience. Hopefully with a lot less trauma and with a lot more support.
That’s what I really like about Measure 109 [the Oregon ballot measure that passed last November to legalize psilocybin services]: having experienced facilitators that can help you prepare, integrate, and apply the lessons you’ve learned throughout your life.
Aside from helping relatively healthy people, people who are really suffering debilitating mental health conditions like PTSD, depression, end of life anxiety or addiction, these medicines are the Indigenous ways of healing that modern pharma is totally inadequate in. These measures, when used right, can help people work through mental-health challenges.
Does Dr. Bronner’s have any financial interest in the psychedelic industry?
No. I have a not-for-profit cannabis line called Brother David’s.
We are going to open an impact-investing arm. It’s not to make money, it’ll just be a signal to other investors as to who we think is a legit for-profit [company]. We’re going to do it through an investment vehicle that will make clear that any returns are reinvested in philanthropic activities and not to the company’s benefit. We’ll still be investing in political campaigns.
Arguably, MAPS is an investment in this way. We’re putting $10 million into MAPS. It’s hopefully going to be a $1 billion non-profit with a for-profit subsidiary, but it’ll have all the right ethics.
Are you personally invested in any psychedelic companies?
No.
Does the company plan to foray into any psychedelic products?
No. I mean I never want to say never, but not in any foreseeable future. My family supports my activism but they don’t see it as a product.
What does your family think of you having introduced this activism for psychedelics?
There’s been a little resistance here and there. It hasn’t historically been their favorite piece of activism, but they were supportive of me. Now they’re 100%.
You wrote a blog post about Compass Pathways, alleging that their CEO made efforts to “mobilize opposition” to Measure 109. Why do you think the Measure 109 model [i.e. passing psychedelics reform through legislation] is better than the route that Compass is taking [i.e. pursuing FDA approval for psilocybin through clinical trials]?
Medical pharma is key because you get insurance, but it’s confined to these narrow, qualifying diagnoses, and these medicines are beneficial to everyone who’s not contraindicated by schizophrenia.
[The blog post] was more a critique of capitalism in general. Maximizing fiduciary returns for shareholders at the exclusion of other stakeholders is not… you can still make a billion dollars less and still be insanely profitable, and not mess up Measure 109.
I think the FDA route is important; I’m on the board of MAPS, and we’re moving through the FDA approval route for PTSD. But the way we look at it is: this is a tactic to bust the culture open and generate the science and clinical evidence needed to move key stakeholders, regulators, and opinion leaders.
Our end game is not to have a bunch of FDA medicines, it’s to have this medicine available for all qualifying adults. The end game is Measure 109; we want these medicines available for everybody, not simply those with a qualifying diagnosis. But Measure 109 would not have happened without the clinical trials.
[In a statement to West Dose, Compass provided the following response: “Measure 109 offers a radically new approach to access to psilocybin therapy. This has the potential to help millions of people but also brings challenges and questions about how it will be implemented to ensure safety and equitable access to those in need… We believe the medical route is the safest and most effective way to get psilocybin therapy (if approved) into the health system, reimbursed, and made available to all who might benefit from it.”]
I’ve spoken to people in Oregon who believe that Dr. Bronner’s pushing Measure 109 will create an environment whereby only a select few businesses in the state will profit off psychedelics, similar to the issues that have arisen with cannabis in America. There have been sentiments that this environment will jeopardize social equity as it relates to psychedelics. What do you say to that?
Well, who is profiting? It’s going to be the facilitators [who are granted licenses in Oregon to serve as psilocybin therapy supervisors]. Measure 109 is bringing the underground community of facilitation above ground. When you go to do an Ayahuasca ceremony, you still have to pay money; it’s not free. Measure 109 allows for group ceremony and group facilitation; you will just know your quality of medicine and that your facilitators are competent.
I do very much support decriminalization. We supported Measure 110; we did decriminalize psychedelics at the same time that we proposed the therapy model.
People should be able to grow their own mushrooms and have churches and ceremonies and other medicines like Ayahuasca. So we’re not done in Oregon until we make sure we have personal amounts. In fact, I was just on a call talking to allies. We are going to make sure there are ceremonial quantities of all plant medicines available for people in Oregon.
Some Oregonians have criticized Measure 110 because, according to the bill, you can have mushrooms, but you can’t have gotten them.
Their actual good point is that, under Measure 110, you can’t grow mushrooms, give them away, or have ceremony. We’re going to take care of [those gaps in the measure] as well. We’re already doing that in California, we’re doing it in D.C.
You need to have campaigns. You need to have professional, funded, paid media. There’s no way you’re going to make policy happen without effective campaigning, and that’s going to take resources.
This interview was conducted on March 22, 2021.
