Podcast Spotlight: Holly Harriel
In the second of our Spotlight Series, The Move co-hosts Ceasar McDowell and Ayushi Roy interview Holly Harriel. We talk about her work as the founder and CEO of Civic Salon, as Brown University’s Director of Education Outreach, and the role of the university in the larger urban environment.
Caesar McDowell: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Spotlight. This is a special edition of The Move where we highlight some people that we’ve come across whose work we really want you to know and understand.
Well, here we are again, having gone through our list of all these wonderful recordings we have and now being able to say, “Oh boy, here’s another one we can kind of put out again to people.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:00:28] Yeah, another one to highlight.
Caesar McDowell: [00:00:30] Yeah. And this is one with Holly Harriel. I know you remember it, it was a really wonderful conversation. Again, she was someone I first met many years ago when she was a student. Now I think she’s one of my teachers. That’s really the way things should work in the world, right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:00:48] That’s incredible, I love that.
Caesar McDowell: [00:00:49] Yeah, but in particular she does a lot of work around working in higher education and in community groups also, but a lot in higher education about really expanding the way they think about inclusion and how they go about designing ways to create more people in these kinds of really diverse communities that universities are, that should be involved in what’s going on.
Ayushi Roy: [00:01:15] And today, were so excited to hear some more about her work at Brown.
Caesar McDowell: [00:01:23] Thank you so much for joining us today, Holly.
Holly Harriel: [00:01:27] Thanks for having me.
Ayushi Roy: [00:01:28] Thank you.
Caesar McDowell: [00:01:29] It’s really good. We actually wanted to have this conversation with you because you’ve had so many different experiences and different kinds of, both from working in community levels to working at higher education institutions by really thinking about and experience around public engagements.
Holly Harriel: [00:01:47] The latest set of work that I’m doing, which is focused on this notion of anchor institutions. What tends to get sort of talked about in the anchor institution conversation are eds and meds. But I mentioned a moment ago, you can actually have a community arts, a museum, libraries, there are nine or ten different types, stadiums. Think large non-profit, large non-profit.
In the last three or four years in my work I’ve been focused on actually universities and colleges, eds and meds around this notion of them being institutional citizens in a city.
Caesar McDowell: [00:02:32] Right
Holly Harriel: [00:02:32] Not just individual residents and people but how do we engage the largest citizens as group in change for good, public good.
Caesar McDowell: [00:02:48] Right
Holly Harriel: [00:02:48] I say that because, a lot of times what happens in those processes is that the decisions have already been determined. When this large institution is saying okay we are going to engage, they’ve already made up their mind, because of lots of times it’s not an excuse sort of how they constructed, right? Big institutions, lots of layers, lots of moving parts, timelines, but decisions and the framing has already happened.
Then they come to the table and say we want to talk to the community and this is especially in the context of if there is tension between the community and a college or university, right?
Caesar McDowell: [00:03:33] Do they more likely to frame it up front?
Holly Harriel: [00:03:35] Oh, goodness yes!
Caesar McDowell: [00:03:37] It’s a way of controlling
Holly Harriel: [00:03:39] Absolutely, controlling the conversation. More recently I’ve been talking about some of the guidance I’ve been providing to leaders, campus leaders is don’t refrain. All right, if you come to the table be an honest broker. If the community, if there’s tension and difficulty and discomfort, don’t immediately work to refrain what the community is saying.
Sit with that discomfort, all right. Let’s see if you can actually sort of work through it. But typically what happens is, well lets reframe it. What I’ve learned throughout my work is that the community is actually bringing this tension up and lots of times its historical tension and they’re using it as a boundary, right. They’re setting ways in which we should talk, right. It was important for the institution to sort of acknowledge that or institutions to acknowledge that, and say “Okay. All right this is a boundary setting around trust, honesty, other things that we need to acknowledge and work with instead of trying to immediately push it to the side or recast it as something else.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:05:01] How do you build an institution’s resilience for tension though? Right because like when you were talking about reframing as a sort of defense mechanism, on the part of these massive schools and other public institutions, I’m thinking of, at the very individual level this sort of hyper medication generation that we’re in.
Holly Harriel: [00:05:24] Yeah
Ayushi Roy: [00:05:25] Even on a personal level and then you start expanding that and adding sort of layers to it, like you were saying and now you have this mass public institution and it’s not really surprising that the same problem exists at the institutional level except that medication turns into just a reframing of the problem.
Holly Harriel: [00:05:41] Right
Ayushi Roy: [00:05:42] So how, you know I go to therapy, what does an institution do? How do you build resilience for tension?
Holly Harriel: [00:05:49] The short answer is I think, we are, we are working to create that. I don’t think that it’s been built yet.
Ayushi Roy: [00:05:56] Yeah
Holly Harriel: [00:05:57] We are actually in a new era for staying in the context of college and universities where lots of institutions, including the one we are in right now
Ayushi Roy: [00:06:07] Right
Holly Harriel: [00:06:08] Are looking at their historical past and fixing some very difficult sort of nuanced understandings of how this institution was come to be.
Ayushi Roy: [00:06:21] Right
Holly Harriel: [00:06:22] Now, so to put that to the side, that is actually, taking on that work, is getting at new causes, as opposed to what has been done in the past typically is truth trying to treat symptoms. Universities and colleges, because they are big, because they have gotten research dollars or donors or there is an interest to explore a particular conversation, they’ll move on it very very quickly.
You’re treating a symptom. So they attempt to treat the symptom, tension arises, we don’t want to deal with the root cause. We make the root cause go away.
Ayushi Roy: [00:07:06] Yeah
Holly Harriel: [00:07:08] We continue to focus on treating symptoms and put a nice neat little bow. And then five years, ten years, fifteen years later, we are back at it again.
Ayushi Roy: [00:07:20] Yeah
Caesar McDowell: [00:07:21] We’re back at it again, yeah.
Holly Harriel: [00:07:22] Right, we’re back at it again. So I think what we’re doing, we’re sort of entering into, not only colleges and universities but the nation in general, we’re entering into a time where we need to have some more honest conversations that are messy, that don’t make you feel good, and will require a new set of skills around dialogue and approach to move us forward.
Ayushi Roy: [00:07:53] Yeah
Caesar McDowell: [00:07:53] I’m wondering though, do you think these institutions, see you talk about anchor institutions and their role in citizenship. I’d say sometimes that I think actually because of that role, not just anchor institutions, but I think any institution that has an obligation to the public has this role, but particularly so with anchor institutions, that they actually have some responsibility to build the public’s muscle for democracy.
But in your work, do people actually see themselves as serving democratic principles, that’s really a role for them, or is that just like we do these things because they’re required of us in order to be good neighbors to get done what we need to get done?
Holly Harriel: [00:08:37] I think this is a setup question. I think it is very much the second. There’s some few institutions who have sort of hearkened down this road of we are going to sit shoulder to shoulder with the community and we’re in for the long haul. This typically comes because there’s a special type of leadership, you know that’s leading the campus. That person, to your point earlier, that person sort of has a makeup of resiliency. Someone has to absorb the shock of we’re in it for the long haul, we’re going to work to strengthen the democracy of our space and we’re present and engaged in that space. If you don’t have a strong leader who sort of comes to the role of leading the campus or group of that thinking sort of in campus leadership, then it becomes just in principle.
Because someone has to absorb the shock of, we’re not doing it like we used to. We are going to go into sort of uncharted territory, that we haven’t done before. I think by in large in principle they say it, but to get into the work of it can be so tense that most large institutions will shy away from it until they absolutely don’t have an out.
Caesar McDowell: [00:10:29] Again, how does someone manage that tension?
Ayushi Roy: [00:10:33] Yeah
Caesar McDowell: [00:10:34] If you have a good leadership around you then that kind of puts some wind to your back.
Ayushi Roy: [00:10:38] Yeah
Caesar McDowell: [00:10:38] Is that the right saying, wind to your back or something.
Ayushi Roy: [00:10:41] Sure
Holly Harriel: [00:10:41] Yeah
Caesar McDowell: [00:10:42] How about sun on your soul?
Holly Harriel: [00:10:45] Both, you actually need both.
Caesar McDowell: [00:10:50] You need both.
Ayushi Roy: [00:10:50] Wow. I want a leader that puts sun on my soul.
Caesar McDowell: [00:10:52] Yeah
Holly Harriel: [00:10:57] Isn’t that nice?
Caesar McDowell: [00:10:58] If you don’t have that or if you do have it you still have to kind of, you’re still caught in the middle.
Holly Harriel: [00:11:04] Yeah, absolutely so I can speak to that directly because I spent six years at Brown University as the Director of Education Outreach. So I have to sort of go back in order to move forward. Brown was the first institution to actually, under the direction of Ruth Simmons, to take up their history and ties to slavery. This was in 2003, which pre-dated my hire, actually.
Ayushi Roy: [00:11:38] First of all the Ivy’s?
Caesar McDowell: [00:11:40] No
Ayushi Roy: [00:11:40] Or first….
Holly Harriel: [00:11:41] First of all the colleges and universities.
Ayushi Roy: [00:11:45] Whoa, wow
Holly Harriel: [00:11:45] It was to my understanding I was actually just sort of moving down to Rhode Island. This was playing out on the national stage and hire ed sector, but also locally because Brown is in Providence. I was just moving down to Rhode Island and was getting a lot of attention that she was going to take this up and address it. The university spent two years through listening sessions and talking sessions and alumni were engaged and faculty, students all segments of the institution she brought into this process or the committee pulled together. Then the extensive report was written.
Out of that report, which is called Slavery and Justice, there were several recommendations that were made and one of those recommendations was that a dedicated office be created around public education. So Brown’s major investment that they were making in the community. They created this office, they actually put it in the education department, which was very interesting. But there was a broken down of lines directly to the president’s office, as you can imagine. This all got set up around 2006. Again, pre-dates me.
So then they’re off to the races. First director comes in, works for a while, makes some headway. Of course you could, as I understood it sort of you had a daunting task.
Caesar McDowell: [00:13:23] Yeah
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:24] Right, yeah.
Caesar McDowell: [00:13:25] There was bridge this gap between Brown University and the public education system, make things right kind of thing. You can devise the plan to do that. There was lots of lights on him, lots of pressure to sort of get something done and get an easy win. He was there for a while, talented guy. I think he stayed for a year or so and then another new director comes, very talented, smart. She stays for about another year. Then by year three the office is vacant.
Caesar McDowell: [00:14:04] Wow
Ayushi Roy: [00:14:04] Whoa
Holly Harriel: [00:14:05] The office is vacant… So I come in about year four into this role. I thought this is a serious challenge on anyone’s hands. But in front of me, because I was listening to everything that they weren’t saying during the interview. They were buttering me up and saying all of the good stuff. But I was saying to myself, I’m not hearing a lot about community voice in this process. I’m not hearing a lot about authentic engagement around the city of Providence and the residence of Providence, historically or otherwise or currently and the university.
So these are the things that I was not hearing and I took the job anyway, because I thought that that was what the office needed to rest itself on. So, to your point Caesar, I was new right? I hand done a stint in higher ed years and years and years and years ago before that. But didn’t really understand the nuance mechanics of how institutions work. But learn.. I’m a quick study.
What I brought to it was my community development background and what I also had going for me was the fact that this was a priority of the president. She made it known that this was something that was important to her. The campus and the trustees, because it works both ways, who she reports to, the president also reports to that this is important. When you come into roles like that, there are a couple of things that I thing that practitioners should do and I am, of course, an urban planner and I’m a practitioner but anyone in that role you are now a practitioner.
In fact, some of the more recent research that I am doing with a colleague of mine, looking at historically black college presidents and how they engage and shape and frame their institutions to engage in civic engagement. They actually operate much more as practitioners in the role of president
Ayushi Roy: [00:16:40] Wow
Holly Harriel: [00:16:40] As opposed to predominantly white institutions, which is a very interesting contrast.
Caesar McDowell: [00:16:45] Very interesting, yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:16:45] Yeah
Holly Harriel: [00:16:45] Yes, a very interesting contrast.
Again, I say anyone in that role taking on the task of true public engagement, civic engagement, in a large institution, college, hospital really has to be practitioner based, in their thinking. They also have and I say that they also have to be committed to community voice.
Caesar McDowell: [00:17:14] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Holly Harriel: [00:17:16] And have a level of resiliency in them because they, you become the person then your office, my office became the office that absorbed the shock. Once I actually started to implement some of the change
Ayushi Roy: [00:17:33] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Holly Harriel: [00:17:33] around we need to engage the community
Caesar McDowell: [00:17:36] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Holly Harriel: [00:17:37] Because I often got the call… Holly knows, or Holly can come and I would say well, I think we need to slow down a bit and I think that we need to engage school principles, we need to engage the superintendent, we need to engage teachers.
Caesar McDowell: [00:17:55] Right
Holly Harriel: [00:17:56] We need to understand the local context of how public education works on the ground in order for this all to make sense.
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:03] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Holly Harriel: [00:18:04] And there was, as you can imagine, lots of pushback around that. Some folks got it, some folks didn’t. But to your point, Cesar I think that to drive the work the practitioner has to be grounded in resiliency and community voice in order to make it work.
Caesar McDowell: [00:18:23] That is a really interesting concept that you have to have this idea of being able to absorb the shock.
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:29] Yeah
Caesar McDowell: [00:18:30] You know, that THAT is an important part of even when we go back to this frame of these kind of sixth design kinds of conversations.
Holly Harriel: [00:18:39] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Caesar McDowell: [00:18:39] You can’t build that if you don’t have some place that’s absorbing the shock. That shock really comes from something you talked about earlier, one of our other series, about the need for healing because there’s so much trauma in public engagement..
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:54] Right
Holly Harriel: [00:18:54] Absol…
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:54] Right
Caesar McDowell: [00:18:55] system that shock has to go somewhere.
Holly Harriel: [00:18:57] Right
Caesar McDowell: [00:18:58] It has to be taken on
Holly Harriel: [00:19:01] Yeah
Ayushi Roy: [00:19:01] You need the personal infrastructure to be able to handle a lot of the civic or constituent infrastructure that you are trying to build at the same time.
Holly Harriel: [00:19:10] Right, that’s exactly right
Ayushi Roy: [00:19:11] When you were talking about having a practitioner mindset and doing your research with your colleague about HBCU’s and non-HBCU’s, the difference is in their presidential leadership styles. I was just curious, what were some of the ways that you had to adopt this practitioner mindset, what did resilience look like for you because it seems like you were there for a lot longer then your predecessors.
Holly Harriel: [00:19:38] Than your one year….
Ayushi Roy: [00:19:39] Right. How did you do that?
Holly Harriel: [00:19:40] So I was in the role for six years.
Ayushi Roy: [00:19:43] Wow
Holly Harriel: [00:19:43] Actually six going on seven years and the job that I had right before my role at Brown was working at the state level in public education for Rhode Island. So I had strong context of how the systems work in the state.
Ayushi Roy: [00:20:00] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Holly Harriel: [00:20:02] Not just for public education, but housing, community development, what conversations, what I would say one of the ways I describe as how things move in Rhode Island is this pedestrian level of conversation.
Caesar McDowell: [00:20:21] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Ayushi Roy: [00:20:22] Hmmm
Holly Harriel: [00:20:22] Then there’s this other level of conversation that’s happening that actually makes systems go
Caesar McDowell: [00:20:30] Hmmm
Holly Harriel: [00:20:31] You have to be very cognizant of what conversation are you having?
Ayushi Roy: [00:20:35] Hmmm
Holly Harriel: [00:20:35] Are you having the I got a guy, which is actually a real colloquialism used in Rhode Island, the I got a guy.
Caesar McDowell: [00:20:45] Yeah
Holly Harriel: [00:20:47] As opposed to a different conversation that folks are making connections with you and are able to move the work.
Caesar McDowell: [00:20:56] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Holly Harriel: [00:20:58] I came with a lot. I had a day to pack like all my bag.
Caesar McDowell: [00:21:04] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Holly Harriel: [00:21:05] One of the things, that I share often, when I talk about the work that I did and actually maintained, I committed to, in my first year, that I would have absolutely no meetings in my office at Brown.
Ayushi Roy: [00:21:18] Wow
Caesar McDowell: [00:21:20] Interesting
Holly Harriel: [00:21:21] Every meeting that I took
Ayushi Roy: [00:21:22] Wow, my hair is rising, just hearing that.
Holly Harriel: [00:21:23] Every meeting that I took that was with in my purview, public education, was at the superintendent’s office, was at a teacher’s office, was a principle’s office, was at an executive director of a non-profit’s office. I also, that was the policy of my office.
Caesar McDowell: [00:21:49] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Holly Harriel: [00:21:53] I was very intentional because I needed to shift the thinking.
Caesar McDowell: [00:21:58] Right
Holly Harriel: [00:21:59] Right, people in general, not just in public education, but people in general if you live in Rhode Island and if you work and live in Providence and you have a meeting with Brown, 99.9% of the time it’s going to be at Brown.
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:16] Right
Holly Harriel: [00:22:16] Right, and that sends a message.
Caesar McDowell: [00:22:18] Right
Holly Harriel: [00:22:19] People are, that signals something
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:21] Right
Holly Harriel: [00:22:22] to people.
So I needed, I wanted to send a different signal, which was, we are going to publicly engage in a different way.
Caesar McDowell: [00:22:33] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Holly Harriel: [00:22:34] So I committed that first year to not having any meetings on Brown’s campus or at my office and then I just instituted that as a policy. Then the shift in response from the community at large, in Providence, went 180.
Caesar McDowell: [00:22:59] Right
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:59] Wow
Holly Harriel: [00:23:01] Right, 180. Here it is we have a large prestigious, elitist institution…
Ayushi Roy: [00:23:13] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Holly Harriel: [00:23:13] …who says that they want to invest in public education in the children of Providence, which is what the fund was called, and every meeting that we had were always at Brown, were always at Brown, were always at Brown. So I said that’s not the signal of we’re engaging, as what I call, there has to be reciprocity.
Caesar McDowell: [00:23:41] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Ayushi Roy: [00:23:42] Yeah
Holly Harriel: [00:23:43] Right, so that was how I took on the practitioner role of embedding myself
Ayushi Roy: [00:23:55] Wow
Holly Harriel: [00:23:56] …in the community.
Caesar McDowell: [00:23:57] You were saying that in these situations there had to be patterns that had to be disrupted?
Holly Harriel: [00:24:02] Yeah absolutely
Caesar McDowell: [00:24:03] If you don’t you’re going be kind of back in the same place and I was actually even thinking about this notion of framing because framing doesn’t just happen about in terms of the conversation you’re having.
Holly Harriel: [00:24:16] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Caesar McDowell: [00:24:16] It is about what you have set up before that allows people feel they can be part of.
Holly Harriel: [00:24:20] Absolutely
Caesar McDowell: [00:24:21] So part of this notion of saying we’re going to be in this community, is actually setting up the conditions…
Ayushi Roy: [00:24:27] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Holly Harriel: [00:24:27] Right
Ayushi Roy: [00:24:27] …that allow people to step into a framing conversation because you’re saying okay, you’ve created a new space.
Holly Harriel: [00:24:34] Right
Ayushi Roy: [00:24:35] A new territory, new rules
Holly Harriel: [00:24:36] Right
Caesar McDowell: [00:24:36] You’re showing respect, reciprocity, maybe we can enter in here more.
Ayushi Roy: [00:24:40] I also think it’s so interesting because in a lot of the conversations that we have here, talking about these six different styles of conversation and ways of communicating. Its so interesting how a lot of, at least what I’m taking from what you just said about this practitioner mindset was also a lot of what you’re not saying.
Holly Harriel: [00:25:03] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:04] There’s a lot that goes unsaid…
Holly Harriel: [00:25:06] Right
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:06] …that is really important in terms of signaling like you pointed out.
Holly Harriel: [00:25:10] Absolutely
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:10] I’m sure there are many other aspects of this as well
Holly Harriel: [00:25:13] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:15] Exactly when I see framing and ideating and selecting and all these different styles of conversation I think of words.
Holly Harriel: [00:25:20] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:21] I don’t really think of the non-worded elements
Holly Harriel: [00:25:23] Right
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:24] …involved in conversations with the community.
Holly Harriel: [00:25:26] That’s right
Caesar McDowell: [00:25:26] Yeah
Holly Harriel: [00:25:28] The signals that are sent
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:29] Right
Holly Harriel: [00:25:31] Both of you are absolutely right. So the other piece of it, there was some shock that I had to absorb.
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:38] Hmmm
Caesar McDowell: [00:25:38] Hmmm
Holly Harriel: [00:25:39] Immediately
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:39] Oh I want to hear about this…
Story time
Holly Harriel: [00:25:44] So prior to my arrival in the role, Brown had given 100 thousand dollars of Texas Instrument calculators to every fifth grader, got a calculator.
Caesar McDowell: [00:26:01] TR-100 (inaudible)
Holly Harriel: [00:26:02] Yeah
Caesar McDowell: [00:26:03] They were giving those away everywhere.
Holly Harriel: [00:26:10] Like I said, so I wasn’t working at Brown but I lived in Rhode Island, read the Providence Journal, was in the paper, got lots of press around it and to the average citizen you say, oh great, this is wonderful right? Well immediately, as soon as I got into the role I heard from lots of different places that that was actually not a win on the public education side.
Ayushi Roy: [00:26:34] Hmmm
Holly Harriel: [00:26:36] So there was and that the university had in some ways also heard that too. So there was a lot of pressure on me, as soon as I hit the role, to get it going. Like we need to make that go away and we need something else. So here it is I’m sitting here and I’m going… okay we have to slow down.
Ayushi Roy: [00:27:00] Hmmm
Holly Harriel: [00:27:00] So the practice that I just told you about, where I’m not holding meetings, that’s going to be policy of my office on campus. I also then had to manage the expectations of the presidents office who I reported to and others around campus who were feeling this heat to rectify what had been done. I then needed to have a set of meetings and form a body on campus that met on a regular basis to talk about the principles around this practice that they were seeing me implement.
Caesar McDowell: [00:27:48] Hmmm
Holly Harriel: [00:27:49] So using words like reciprocity, words like dignity and humanity, things that we actually revisit as we talk about democracy and how we get it to fully function again. I don’t think that we can let it go unsaid anymore. I think that we assume that people understand what dignity means and how you honor that.
So, in doing a series of meetings in higher education fashion, series of emails and memos and things of that nature, I was absorbing that shock.
Caesar McDowell: [00:28:26] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Holly Harriel: [00:28:27] But, like I said, literally I wanna say a year later the change that all of the university felt.
Caesar McDowell: [00:28:40] Hmmm
Holly Harriel: [00:28:40] By that practice, not just my office, the entire university…
Ayushi Roy: [00:28:45] Wow
Holly Harriel: [00:28:45] …benefited from the office that had been charged with civic engagement, changing, tweaking the practice, the entire institution had benefited from that. So it started to pay off.
Ayushi Roy: [00:29:02] Hmmm
Caesar McDowell: [00:29:02] This is actually a beautiful example of design for the margins, right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:29:08] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Caesar McDowell: [00:29:08] Because you said I’m going to work, I’m going to build our practice and how we connect with the community in a very different way. We are going to design it so it works for them.
Holly Harriel: [00:29:18] Right
Caesar McDowell: [00:29:18] Then the benefit is much greater then for them.
Holly Harriel: [00:29:23] Right
Caesar McDowell: [00:29:23] It expands to a much larger audience…
Holly Harriel: [00:29:24] That’s right
Caesar McDowell: [00:29:25] …In that way.
Thank you so much!
Holly Harriel: [00:29:27] Thank you, no absolutely!
Caesar McDowell: [00:29:28] This has been great!
Holly Harriel: [00:29:29] Thank you for having me!
Caesar McDowell: [00:29:31] Thanks Holly!
Holly Harriel: [00:29:32] Nice seeing you!
Ayushi Roy: [00:29:37] Thanks so much for listening to Spotlight series here at the Move.
Caesar McDowell: [00:29:40] Join us in mid July when we start our second series. We are a production of the Department of Urban Studies and Planning at MIT with support from MIT’s office of local learning.
Ayushi Roy: [00:29:50] Our sound is produced by Dave Lishansky, our content by Julia Curbera and Misael Galdamez. I’m Ayushi Roy.
Caesar McDowell: [00:29:57] I’m Ceasar McDowell
Ayushi Roy: [00:29:58] You can find us online at themove.mit.edu.
Caesar McDowell: [00:30:03] And on our medium site at
Ayushi Roy: [00:30:06] Medium.com/themovemit as well as our Twitter and Facebook. Thanks so much!
Caesar McDowell: [00:30:11] Goodbye
