S2E8: Digital Curb Cuts with Nicole Bleuel
In Episode 8, The Move Podcast interviews Nicole Bleuel from Google’s Creative Lab. Co-hosts Ceasar and Ayushi discuss the responsibility of technology companies to build for a more representative public, and the opportunity for tech employees to use their platform’s reach for good. We learn about how the Emoji keyboard became more inclusive, and about some of the latest technology that makes the world a little more accessible. Can creating digital products for people at the margins benefit both business and society?
Nicole Bleuel: [00:00:00] You can start by thinking about the people who really need it most and are the ones who are going to benefit the most. Then ultimately the solution is just a better solution for everybody.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:00:12] Hey Ayushi.
Ayushi Roy: [00:00:18] Hey Ceasar.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:00:19] What’s happening today?
Ayushi Roy: [00:00:21] Today we have a very special person in our podcast. She’s a former college classmate of mine, a good friend, and now is at the Google Creative Lab in New York. Nicole Bleuel is going to be with us today and talk to us a little bit about the various projects, projects that she’s worked on while she’s been at Google. And you know, she’ll be speaking more as Nicole than as like the ambassador for all of Google. And we’re hoping we can get, you know, a bit of an understanding of how a big technology company like Google sees their role, um, in the greater public and civic spaces.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:00:55] Yeah, because they’re in all of our lives. So I’m sure she’s going to have something to say about that.
Ayushi Roy: [00:00:59] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:01:00] [laughs]. So the disclaimer on our show is you are not hearing from Google today.
Ayushi Roy: [00:01:05] Yes.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:01:06] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:01:06] You’re hearing from Nicole Bleuel who is phenomenal and happens to work at the Google Creative Lab in New York.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:01:11] Right.
Ayushi Roy: [00:01:12] [laughs]. So my first question to you was going to be, how have you learned like to see your sort of like community base, if you will? You know, like how do you envision if at all the sort of like “public” that you feel like you’re serving?
Nicole Bleuel: [00:01:33] Yeah. How do I even begin to answer that? Because-
Ayushi Roy: [00:01:36] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:01:36] … I think that the truth is in some ways we really do want and ultimately the goal would be to build things for everybody-
Ayushi Roy: [00:01:46] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:01:46] Right? It’s a very, not only a very Google-y thing, but like-
Ayushi Roy: [00:01:50] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:01:51] … For myself, I’d love to build things that kind of impact as many people as possible.
Ayushi Roy: [00:01:55] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:01:55] But I think what I’ve realized more and more as kind of time has gone on and I’ve worked on different projects that sometimes it’s less so about impacting as many people as possible and really impacting the people who need it the most. And I think that’s very similar to some of the, the trends in the ways that you guys are thinking about this too from more of like a, you know, public or civic side of things. How can we bring in the people who haven’t necessarily been brought into the conversation before, because that’s where we’re going to learn the newest things and be able to do the most innovative things because these are, these are the communities that haven’t historically been served or represented.
Ayushi Roy: [00:02:34] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:02:35] And so, I don’t know. I’ve, I’ve worked on a whole bunch of different things where you kind of, you sma- you spot smaller problems here or there that maybe feel like they target more specific groups of people and then you realize that actually by solving the needs of that community, you wind up solving the needs of many-
Ayushi Roy: [00:02:52] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:02:52] … Many, many more communities.
Ayushi Roy: [00:02:54] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:02:55] So I don’t know, I, I think in general I try to approach the kinds of projects that I take on or the things I get interested less in like I want to find a community necessarily more just like I want to … You know what I mean? Like I’m not trying to target-
Ayushi Roy: [00:03:07] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:03:07] … One specific group, but rather like, okay, who actually could we do the most for right now?
Ayushi Roy: [00:03:13] Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And how might that like, you know, serving that target population end up benefiting so many other people like you were saying. Right? So like that’s something that I find super interesting. I mean, the recent project that you guys just released and that you were a big part of, Live Caption, is so cool. Like I think that’s … I mean, do you want to tell us a little bit about that?
Nicole Bleuel: [00:03:32] Yeah, totally. So this is, this is the one that I’m super excited about. We just announced in may a product called Live Caption, which captions basically any media playing on your device. So if you think about it back in like 2009, YouTube added automatic captioning to every video on YouTube.
Ayushi Roy: [00:03:48] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:03:48] But we were kind of thinking, what about all of the content that’s not on YouTube, right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:03:52] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:03:52] If I’m just on my phone and I receive a Snapchat video or Instagram video or there’s video on Twitter or I get an audio message in WhatsApp, or … You know what I mean. It goes on-
Ayushi Roy: [00:04:00] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:04:00] … And on and on. Why can’t all of that stuff also be automatically captioned? And we began really by working with the deaf and hard of hearing community-
Ayushi Roy: [00:04:09] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:04:09] … When we were thinking about live caption, because to them captioning of content isn’t just a nice to have. It’s actually what makes that content accessible. And so by really solving for that community’s needs and understanding of what it was they needed, we were able to kind of like build this feature that in solving for their needs actually really solve for everybody’s needs. So I’m, you know, I’m someone who identifies as hearing. I use captions all the time, right? Like I have [inaudible 00:04:37].
Ayushi Roy: [00:04:37] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:04:37] … Way to work and it’s just super loud and I’m missing the things that are being said as I go in and out and it’s like captions help me with that. Or I don’t know, we’ve probably all been in a situation where like trying to actually watch a video in school or-
Ayushi Roy: [00:04:49] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:04:49] … In a meeting and like me, you know what I mean? But-
Ayushi Roy: [00:04:53] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:04:53] But if you start by thinking about the people who really need it most and are the ones who are going to benefit the most from that technology-
Ayushi Roy: [00:05:00] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:05:00] Then ultimately the solution-
Ayushi Roy: [00:05:02] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:05:02] … Is just a better solution for everybody. It’s that digital curb cut-
Ayushi Roy: [00:05:06] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:05:06] … In fact.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:05:06] Yeah, that’s really right aligned with that … Are designed for the margins-
Nicole Bleuel: [00:05:10] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:05:10] Kind of thing, uh, framework. I should say principle. So I’m, I’m curious because I love this idea. I love what you’re talking about. It’s really practical. Like you know, kind of working with these folks who have a particular issue and then it actually works for everyone. I usually ask you to begin with about this question, well who’s the public-
Nicole Bleuel: [00:05:28] Mmh.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:05:28] … That you’re engaged with, and I wonder, do you see what you’re doing really as, are you trying to do something that actually is … Even though you’re coming from a perspective of working in particular group of you know it’s going to affect the larger, what are you trying to do as it relates to the broader public? I mean, are you … What’s your end game? Where are you actually … Where are you headed with all this, you know, different projects you’re going after?
Nicole Bleuel: [00:05:53] Mmh.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:05:53] There must be some frame that you’re holding about how you think about impact the public, what we’re challenged with and how you’re chipping away at that challenge.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:06:03] Yeah. I think, and especially right now, I’ve definitely had a lot more of a focus recently on accessibility. And I would say kind of my hope is just to make the world a little more accessible. [laughs]. I can kind of summarize that way, but, but even before I got into really some of the work from an accessibility standpoint, it was really just I think about elevating voices that we maybe don’t as often hear from-
Ceasar McDowell: [00:06:31] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:06:31] … And giving everybody that a platform to speak and to be heard and to have that kind of impact. So, even when I think about some of the projects from an accessibility standpoint that we’ve been working on, to me part of it is less so just about actually building the technology that makes something a little more accessible, but actually like really elevating the voices in the community that have been trying to do this for so long and need-
Ayushi Roy: [00:06:56] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:06:56] … A big platform, a big technology to kind of come and like support them and champion the work that they have been doing and acknowledged that this has actually been going on way before I even stepped into this. You know?
Ayushi Roy: [00:07:08] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:07:08] Like that’s really I think the best thing that I can do-
Ayushi Roy: [00:07:12] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:07:12] … Is to kind of like help bring those voices into the conversation and understand-
Ayushi Roy: [00:07:15] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:07:16] … Like what are the problems that you’re trying to solve? How can we help you solve those problems and then how can we make sure that you get the credit for solving those problems?
Ayushi Roy: [00:07:22] Mmh. How did you even start upon that? Like that’s incredible. That’s your perspective, you know, in the work that you have and like it sounds like you’re using this, you know, ridiculously [laughs] big Google platform-
Nicole Bleuel: [00:07:33] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:07:34] … To like basically amplify the voices of, you know, people that don’t otherwise have access to that sort of platform. But like, how did you even get there? Like what, what was your sort of like thought process or … Because there’s so many people that work for, not just Google but like sort of similar, you know, platform technology companies and the chance of them taking accessibility on as like their issue is, it feels like it’s less heard of. So [laughs], you know, how, how did, how did you get there?
Nicole Bleuel: [00:08:04] Yeah. I mean, there are a few different ways of kind of breaking that question down.
Ayushi Roy: [00:08:09] Okay.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:08:09] I think, um, I … In terms of stepping into like more of the accessibility work, I, I kind of had an opportunity to get involved and sort of champion a project. And I think truthfully because of a lot of things that were, that I was experiencing in my personal life led me to want to take on that project like even, even more so-
Ayushi Roy: [00:08:28] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:08:28] … And really push it through-
Ceasar McDowell: [00:08:29] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:08:29] … Because there was so much really personally believed in. So there was a little bit of a, of a personal angle I would guess, but in terms of the approach of kind of uplifting the voices, I guess what I really realized when I was kicking off kind of that first project was it’s like I don’t know anything-
Ayushi Roy: [00:08:47] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:08:47] … Like I don’t, I don’t know enough about this space to in any way be considered the person or the expert who should be talking about this. And I recognize that, and so if I actually want to, to move this forward in any way-
Ayushi Roy: [00:09:02] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:09:02] …Like I need to talk to people who actually are the experts-
Ayushi Roy: [00:09:05] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:09:05] … You know? And it’s a lot more credible to hear from somebody else who is an expert when they say, “This is what I need,” than to hear from me being like, “I think this is what …” You know what I mean?
Ayushi Roy: [00:09:21] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:09:21] So, [laughs], and so when you, when you kind of have that approach of like, “I’m going to just recognize how little I actually do know and put all of my effort into understanding like who it is that actually knows what they’re talking [laughs] about-”
Ceasar McDowell: [00:09:36] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:09:36] “… Then I can, then I can lean on them as a partner to be like, “All right, this is how we can push this through together.” Like, “I’ve got this platform, I’ve got this role. We have the ability to kind of do X, Y, Z, but you’re the one with all the credit here. So-”
Ayushi Roy: [00:09:49] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:09:49] “… Let me …” You know what I mean?
Ayushi Roy: [00:09:50] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:09:51] I’m very [laughs] … Let’s like actually partner together in this.
Ayushi Roy: [00:09:55] Wow. I love that humility so much. I mean like just that quick recognition of like, “I don’t know any … I don’t know this,” you know, is, is-
Nicole Bleuel: [00:10:02] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:10:03] Like admitting that is such a big first step. I mean we, you know … Ceasar has, has played a really big part in my understanding like this one, you know, quote by Colmore and understanding the way in which struggle and interdependence is a really big part of how, not just democracy, but like community is built. And hearing you say that is making me think a big part of recognizing interdependence through struggle is being willing to admit that you don’t know something or being willing to admit that you’re like in some way lesser than, right? And that like you’re not going to use the fact that like Google has solved like X problem to then believe that you could solve every other problem in the world. Right? Like kind of just admitting-
Nicole Bleuel: [00:10:49] Mmh.
Ayushi Roy: [00:10:49] … That this is maybe my niche, but these are all things that are outside of that niche is such a big part of maybe understanding interdependence and being a bigger part of a community. And I just, I love … I don’t know, that’s like, that’s really resonating with me right now.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:11:03] Yeah. And I wonder, you know, you hold that and you step into this space with a lot of humility, but what happens when you show up in some of these groups and communities? Do they like automatically accept that humility or they say like, “Okay, what do you really want to do?”
Nicole Bleuel: [00:11:17] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:11:17] “And why are you really here?”
Nicole Bleuel: [00:11:18] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:11:18] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:11:20] Yeah, it’s a good question and I think it, again, honestly depends on what it is that we’re trying to do.
Ayushi Roy: [00:11:26] Mm-hmm [affirmative]. What happened with like the live, the live caption one? What was that like when you walked in, you were like, “Okay, here’s the hard of hearing community.” Were they like skeptical that you were talking to them or what was their … Yeah.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:11:36] Truthfully, not even.
Ayushi Roy: [00:11:37] Okay.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:11:38] I’ve tried to do a very good job of making it very clear in the community that I am not about to come in and try to take credit for something that actually I’m having somebody else do all of the, all of the work for, right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:11:49] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:11:50] So if I’m coming into a community like, “Hey, I want to build this thing that really you-”
Ayushi Roy: [00:11:53] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:11:53] It’s like, “I want to give you … First of all, I want to make that technology for you.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:11:57] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:11:57] “And then I also want to like elevate you as a part of the process of having created that.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:12:02] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:12:02] And so the relationship building first of all is so, so, so important.
Ayushi Roy: [00:12:06] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:12:06] But then I think the second part of it is understanding what I do have the opportunity to come in, you know what I mean? Like what is the right space for me two take on a project or not, because-
Ayushi Roy: [00:12:20] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:12:20] … Yes, like I am somebody who works in technology and so should I be coming in and trying to get involved in, you know, projects that are related maybe like you know, to policy or to government design? No, that’s not the right, that’s not the right space and that’s not the right thing that me in more of a technology role-
Ayushi Roy: [00:12:38] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:12:39] Has the room to plan or the credibility in.
Ayushi Roy: [00:12:41] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:12:42] But when it comes to making technology more accessible-
Ayushi Roy: [00:12:45] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:12:46] … Than that’s what … Yes. [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:12:48] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:12:48] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:12:48] And, and it’s actually … It’s actually an exciting thing of like, “Oh, here’s somebody from a big company that we maybe used to think of as inaccessible in terms of being able to actually like, you know, even meet someone from there or you know-
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:04] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:13:04] … Who actually wants to like use exactly what that company is designed for-
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:08] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:13:09] … To like help solve-
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:11] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:13:11] … Problems.
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:12] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:13:12] Then I think that all of a sudden it’s like, okay, you’ve identified the right problem to be solving your … You are identifying the right people to be bringing into the conversation-
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:22] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:13:22] … And you’re not in any way trying to take credit-
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:25] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:13:26] … Or fall into any of the kind of pitfalls that you do very often see-
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:30] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:13:31] … When it comes to maybe the way in, in which people from this community are-
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:35] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:13:35] … Are represented or not credited or things like that.
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:38] Mm-hmm [affirmative], mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:13:38] And yeah, it is really about building, building the partnership and the relationship. And in that example we had, we had brought in a couple of designers and advocates from the community to actually sit with us and workshop with us and take their feedback and build it into the product. And even just ask them like, “Is this a, is this what you want?” Like, “Is this right? Is this wrong? How should this look?” And, and then kind of kept them like involved throughout. And so it really did feel I think a lot more like, um, like a meaningful partnership, you know?
Ayushi Roy: [00:14:07] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:14:07] No, I want to go back to something else you just said, which I think is really fascinating and I’m going to paraphrase it in my own way. So, uh, I hope it sounds familiar to you-
Ayushi Roy: [00:14:18] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:14:18] [laughs], but part of what I heard you, you know, recognizing is that, “Okay look, I sit in a particular position of power around a certain kind of thing. That’s technology. I know something about it. I’m in a company that does all of that. And if I’m going out into the community, then I have to be responsible about where that power lies. Right.” And you’re saying, “Where it lies for me is I do stuff around technology,” right? “And I’m not going to abuse his power by saying, ‘Oh, by the way, I can do something else about your housing stuff too-’”
Ayushi Roy: [00:14:49] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:14:49] “… Because that’s not my lane. My lane is really right here on this really narrow thing. That’s what I do. That’s how I can be in relationship with you.” I actually think that’s really important, because a lot of times … It’s funny, uh, early on in our season we talked with somebody named Eric Gordon. He, we were talking about this whole issue about how a lot of players, corporations and so on and so forth are entering the civic space and he was saying, “No, they need to stay out.” You know, “They’re really transactional. They need to stay in the space we’re supposed to be in.”
But I think there’s an analogy here, not even about you being transactional, just saying like if you’re really going to engage with the public community and you’re doing it from a particular business or a particular expertise, then do it from that expertise and don’t leverage that power that you have the expertise to go into other areas. Uh, and that’s really, really important. And I teach here in the Department of Urban Studies and Planning. I wish she was there because there’s this, there’s this other thing that I think gets in the way of that.
A lot of times people who are like in our program have a paralysis of working with communities sometimes because they feel like, “What if I, I don’t know enough?”
Ayushi Roy: [00:16:02] Mmh.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:16:03] And maybe part of what you’re representing here, no, it’s not about you not knowing enough, it’s about you knowing what you know-
Ayushi Roy: [00:16:08] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:16:09] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:16:09] … And being clear about that to people so they can then know how to engage with you.
Ayushi Roy: [00:16:14] Yeah.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:16:14] Totally. And I want to also build off of that and say that that to me doesn’t only end with like where I work, but I think it’s something that everybody can recognize for themselves as individuals in any capacities that they want to get involved. Right? So even outside of work. I do come from like a marketing background, right? So if I wanted to maybe get involved with a nonprofit organization or some sort of community, right? And help them, like I recognize that my strength is in storytelling and that’s probably where I can provide the most value.
Ayushi Roy: [00:16:45] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:16:45] It’s not in legal advice or financial advice.
Ayushi Roy: [00:16:48] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:16:48] You know what I mean?
Ayushi Roy: [00:16:49] Yeah.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:16:49] And that’s something that just me as an individual in any way that I’m looking to get involved really with anything can think about it too, right? Meanwhile, maybe somebody else, their expertise is actually in finance or whatever, right? So they shouldn’t be joining a nonprofit board trying to give maybe marketing advice [laughing], but there’s ways that everybody at an individual level, even independent, you know, of where they work-
Ayushi Roy: [00:17:11] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:17:12] Like that is something that you … I think everyone should be weary of.
Ayushi Roy: [00:17:16] Yeah.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:17:16] And it’s a strain, right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:17:17] Yeah.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:17:17] It’s not that … It’s not a bad thing that I don’t have a background in finance or illegal or whatever it is. Right? It’s just a strength that I recognize that mine is in maybe storytelling or in product development.
Ayushi Roy: [00:17:29] Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And it’s funny, you know that kind of like introspection and self-awareness is such a big part of where we ended Season 1. You know, it was like this recognition that in order to be able to engage effectively with other members of the public or other parts of the community, it’s about recognizing like who you are and where you stand, you know, and, and where you shouldn’t stand. [laughs]. Right? And that’s, and that’s really powerful. I … One thing I want to like … That I’m really curious about and want to pick up on is this Morse code project that you were doing.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:17:59] Totally. So, we and met this really incredible woman, Tanya Finlayson. She basically found her voice through Morse code. And what I mean by that is that when she was born, she was born with cerebral palsy, and she couldn’t speak, and she used to have to use like a word board to communicate. So imagine being constrained by few words on a physical board that-
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:20] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:18:21] … Someone would hold up and she would have to point her head to one of the words to be able to speak. Right? So then, which he discovered at some point, I think in the ’80s actually was Morse code, which is a dot and a dash. So it only requires two buttons to be able-
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:35] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:18:35] … To communicate as a way for her to actually be able to communicate. So now-
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:41] Wow.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:18:41] … With only two buttons-
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:42] Wow.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:18:42] … Rather than if you think about the standard keyboard that has like 26 buttons-
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:46] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:18:47] Right.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:18:47] … Plus all the numbers, et cetera. Now she essentially had this way through only two buttons to be able to express herself freely.
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:53] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:18:54] … And so she had to essentially build her own Morse code device that would translate the dots and dashes into-
Ayushi Roy: [00:19:01] Wow.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:19:01] … Letters. And, you know, now she uses that to kind of like type anything; email, Facebook posts, et cetera-
Ayushi Roy: [00:19:08] Wow.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:19:08] … Also. And that isn’t something that is widely available to many people-
Ayushi Roy: [00:19:14] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:19:14] … In her situation or to parents of children in her situation. So she was really, really interested in being able to open up that access-
Ayushi Roy: [00:19:23] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:19:23] … And essentially make a Morse keyboard available for free on the devices that are already in our pockets-
Ayushi Roy: [00:19:30] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:19:30] … Our phones, right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:19:31] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:19:32] So we essentially worked with her to, to build a Morse code keyboard into Gboard, which is the Google keyboard.
Ayushi Roy: [00:19:40] Wow.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:19:40] So you know, if you have, if you have an Android phone or if you use Gboard on iOS, there are different keyboards for different languages, right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:19:47] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:19:47] So there’s the English keyboard, there is [inaudible 00:19:50] keyword, et cetera.
Ayushi Roy: [00:19:50] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
So now that is, is a Morse code keyboard, which allows anyone-
That’s awesome.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:19:54] … To basically using only a dot and dash type and it gets translated into the, the Latin alphabet characters.
Ayushi Roy: [00:20:01] Wow.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:20:01] So, yeah. [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:20:03] That’s so cool. And so h- like I … That project, I mean after I read about it, it made my hair rise, I mean hearing just her sort of evolution in speaking in Morse and like it talks about … I think the one article I read was like, you know, her first words like her dad equipped her with this like keyboard and their first words were like, “You’re an old fart dad.” You know?
Nicole Bleuel: [00:20:22] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:20:22] And he starts like laughing but also crying. And it’s just like very emotional experience to be able to communicate. I mean like … I’m going to have a moment, but like, as someone who talks a lot-
Nicole Bleuel: [00:20:33] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:20:33] And like, [laughing], and like now basically gets like, you know, kind of half paid by MIT just to be speaking on mic-
Ceasar McDowell: [00:20:39] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:20:40] Like, communication is such a big part. Verbal communication is such a big part of my lived experience and like I can’t being born to not be allowed to do that. And so, wow, I’m like actually going to start crying. Um, but like reading that piece was so powerful for me, because it made me think about like all the people in the world that like don’t have the things that we take for granted. And I, I’m just so curious as to like how, you know, you guys even found Tanya or like how she found you or … You know, you talked a lot about the importance of relationships.
Like how do you as an individual in this massive organize … I mean Google has, how many employees now?
Nicole Bleuel: [00:21:20] Oh, I don’t even know.
Ayushi Roy: [00:21:21] It’s huge. It’s like-
Nicole Bleuel: [00:21:23] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:21:23] … [laughing] guys are ridiculous. Right? So like how do you as one person in this like massive sea of Googlers even begin to like build these relationships to expand the sensibility of, of this organization you’re a part of? Like how did that even happen? How did that relationship happen?
Nicole Bleuel: [00:21:38] I mean honestly as [laughing] she is the expert in Morse code and assistive technology, like-
Ayushi Roy: [00:21:46] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:21:46] … She just rises to the top of that and-
Ayushi Roy: [00:21:49] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:21:50] … Interestingly like it’s all about building your network and also like really good research skills, right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:21:56] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:21:56] And so for we kind of, we reached a point where like a few of the different folks that we already had relationships with in just kind of the like accessibility community, eventually like it felt like all roads pointed to Tanya-
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:09] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:22:09] … Which was really exciting. And something else that I just want to add on, not related to this, but kind of to an earlier point that you made.
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:15] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:22:15] I think what’s cool and what’s important about this one is it really is all about basically just creating more options, right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:23] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:22:23] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:22:23] Like, I think an important note with this project, or at least the way that I personally think about it, is like Morse code is not going to be the solution for everybody-
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:31] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:22:31] Right? Everybody’s needs are so different and so unique and what works for Tanya isn’t necessarily going to work for somebody else. But if you can have … The more options you can have and the more options you can have for free and without having to, you know, purchase an expensive piece of equipment-
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:50] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:22:50] … Only to then find out that that option actually doesn’t work for you and now you’re out on the … You know?
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:56] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:22:56] That’s really, that’s kind of the the best thing you can do. And so it’s hard, because especially I think as we try to think about in gen … You know, in general everybody have, has this question of like, “What is going to be the return on my investment essentially?”
Ayushi Roy: [00:23:11] Yeah [laughing].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:23:11] Right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:23:11] Right.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:23:11] Like how can I prove that putting in the hours and the time and the resources to this project is going to be worth it. Sometimes that’s just not always the right way to approach problems-
Ayushi Roy: [00:23:23] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:23:23] … And it is more to recognize, you know what? This isn’t necessarily going to help everybody, but if it can really help one person, then, then that is worth it.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:23:33] And it actually just makes me want to ask this question. And so like, there are millions of people in the world probably with millions of different needs. How do you decide and how do you convince? How do you decide what you want to work on and then how do you convince others inside Google like, “This is the one thing to do now?”
Nicole Bleuel: [00:23:51] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:23:51] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:23:52] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:23:54] You know, I wish there [laughing] I wish there was a clear answer to that. [laughing].
Ayushi Roy: [00:23:59] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:23:59] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:24:00] But I think some, sometimes it … Again it is just about what do I really think is the right lane for us to be-
Ayushi Roy: [00:24:10] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:24:10] … Driving in, right? Like the live caption example I think is a good one, because automatic captions was something that Google add … Or that YouTube added YouTube, so by Google to every video on YouTube. Right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:24:20] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:24:21] And so this question of just like, “Well, why can’t we do that on everything outside of YouTube too?” It’s like it’s this perfect space of, “Oh yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense of a problem that we are uniquely capable of solving.” Right?
Ceasar McDowell: [00:24:33] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:24:34] It’s a problem that there is a really big need for-
Ceasar McDowell: [00:24:37] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:24:37] Right? You have all of the right factors like in place at the same time.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:24:40] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:24:41] In terms of like anything else, I don’t know. [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:24:45] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:24:46] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:24:47] I wish, I wish that there was like one clear good ask or path, but I think that’s, that’s part of why I still have a job, like-
Ayushi Roy: [00:24:56] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:24:56] [laughs]. So, it’s basically job to try and like kind of figure that out and as our team comes up with, with cool ideas or identify the cool opportunities like, “Okay, well is, is there a there, there-”
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:08] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:25:08] … First of all.
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:09] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:25:09] And if yes, what do we need to do to, to actually make it happen? That’s my exciting challenge.
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:15] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:25:15] So, has there been a there that was there, but it wasn’t the right there for Google that you were really excited about like, “Oh, here’s an idea. Oh, it’s just not in our lane, but-”
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:25] Like uniquely equipped to be able to address it even though we want to, like …
Ceasar McDowell: [00:25:29] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:29] Yeah.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:25:29] That’s a good question. I mean, there are definitely a lot of things that I get really excited about and just want to work on, but have to recognize that maybe in my, in my more personal life, but like as a Google project not so much. And especially even in thinking from like an accessibility standpoint that ranges from maybe legislation or like societal challenges or I mean medical and health related things.
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:57] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:25:57] And all of that is kind of like [inaudible] that’s just not the right space-
Ayushi Roy: [00:26:01] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:26:02] … For me to be bringing the technology company into. Like that’s not the right fit, but it is something that maybe outside of work I can try to get involved in. So yeah, I think it again, when it’s like I have an opportunity to leverage this kind of like technology company that I am a part of to activate from a technology side of things-
Ayushi Roy: [00:26:24] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:26:25] That normally feels like it makes a lot of sense, but things outside of that, that space, it just isn’t the right … And it wouldn’t feel right, you know.
Ayushi Roy: [00:26:34] Mmh.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:26:34] Feel right, mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:26:35] I mean, that’s an amazing commentary on like self-regulation. You know, because I think like when talking to, you know, our first episode this season with Eric Gordon, we were thinking again a lot about like … We started asking this question as I mentioned earlier, we started asking the question in Season 2 trailer about the role that nontraditional actors should play in shaping civic life. And Eric basically came in and was like, “Well, why should they even be playing a role?” Like, “Why should they be trying to work on public life when their job is to sell you cars?” You know-
Nicole Bleuel: [00:27:10] Mmh, yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:27:10] Like “Why should they be a part of that? That’s almost muddies this sort of clarity in the transactions that they’re in charge of and makes them kind of like green-washes them to make them feel like they’re doing more and, and sort of almost deludes even the consumer into thinking that the company’s doing more.” And the opposite of that would then be like, in Eric’s perspective at least, like the sense of how can companies self-regulate? And what you’re describing is kind of really beautiful, because it’s like you’re not even thinking about it as like self-regulation. You’re thinking about it as like, “Am I uniquely equipped to solve this problem? Is this within my wheelhouse?”
“And if it’s not, let’s not try to convince ourselves that we somehow are equipped. Let’s just be real about like what we can and can’t do.” You know? And I think that’s like a really … That’s what I’m hearing at least, that that seems like a really incredible way to yeah, to kind of like draw those lines that can otherwise be kind of easily muddied. That’s … I mean, it’s amazing. One thing that like also comes to mind for me is the, you know, emoji project that you worked on, you know, as, as someone who’s been a friend of yours, I know that … How passionate you are about women’s issues and women in the workplace.
And you know, I remember one of the first sort of messages I got in our like sort of women’s group chat, [laughs], from you was about you having worked with a team to now almost like what? Triple the emoji keyboard, the original-
Nicole Bleuel: [00:28:32] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:28:33] … Emoji keyboard by adding in all of the like female versions of every emoji that was on the keyboard at the moment. So, it was like doctors are portrayed as men or like you know, firefighters are portrayed as men and you were like, “No, like why should they only be a male depiction of a firefighter or of a doctor and only a female depiction of a dancer?” Like, why is that the case?” And you went in there and just like changed all of that [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:29:01] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:29:02] And, and like, I don’t know. Were you also a part of the like multiple like skin tones for every emoji as well?
Nicole Bleuel: [00:29:08] Well, so the, the skin tones was something that was I guess a little bit before me-
Ayushi Roy: [00:29:13] Okay, okay.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:29:13] But yeah, when we then proposed adding new professions and we led with them basically being female first, it was obviously, and they have to come into all of this skin tones.
Ayushi Roy: [00:29:23] Yes.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:29:24] So yeah, it led to a lot more, [laughs]-
Ayushi Roy: [00:29:26] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:29:27] … A lot more emoji. So yeah, that was really interesting one, because I personally, [laughs], I personally, I am a big fan of emoji and I use them all the time. Right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:29:39] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:29:40] And back in, oh man, what does it? 2016-
Ayushi Roy: [00:29:44] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:29:45] 2015, yeah. If you looked at the emoji on your keyboard that were gendered, what you basically saw is that all of the professions, be it all of the sports players emoji or the a policeman or the detective-man, et cetera, they were all men.
Ayushi Roy: [00:30:04] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:30:04] And if you looked at the, the emoji that were women-
Ayushi Roy: [00:30:10] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:30:11] … It was the bride-
Ayushi Roy: [00:30:12] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:30:12] … It was the dancer-
Ayushi Roy: [00:30:14] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:30:14] It was, you know, the girl getting her haircut.
Ayushi Roy: [00:30:16] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:30:18] And so it was kind of this question of why, like why does that have to be the case? Why can’t, first of all, all of those emoji exists in both genders and also what the hell? What about [laughing] what about all these other professions that, you know, women and people do-
Ayushi Roy: [00:30:37] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:30:37] .. That aren’t represented. And so it was this like personal thing that I, I just kind of felt but recognized that as you know, one of the companies that creates a set of emoji, right? So, so Google has like the, the Android emoji, right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:30:53] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:30:54] Apple has theirs, Twitter has theirs, Facebook has theirs. So there are a bunch of companies that have their own like emoji sets, right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:30:58] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:30:58] You notice across these platforms they’re kind of all slightly different.
Ayushi Roy: [00:31:00] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:31:00] I was like, “Maybe we can just change ours.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:31:03] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:31:03] And then it turns out that there’s this governing board of-
Ayushi Roy: [00:31:06] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:31:07] … Emoji amongst other things called Unicode and so-
Ceasar McDowell: [00:31:11] The, the emoji governing board, huh? Wow, [inaudible 00:31:13].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:31:13] Yeah. So-
Ceasar McDowell: [00:31:13] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:31:14] And Unicode was this, this-
Ayushi Roy: [00:31:15] A governing board of emoji.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:31:17] That’s, that’s what I call it.
Ayushi Roy: [00:31:18] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:31:18] I don’t think that they would want to [laughing] [inaudible 00:31:20] that way.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:31:19] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:31:21] Um-
Ayushi Roy: [00:31:22] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:31:23] But, it it actually makes a lot of sense, because if you think about like … If you have an Android and your friend has an iPhone, right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:31:29] Uh-huh [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:31:29] … And you’re sending an emoji, it’s slightly different across the platforms. Right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:31:32] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:31:33] Which leads to all these funny articles about like how different emojis show up in different places.
Ayushi Roy: [00:31:36] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:31:37] But so there is this kind of … They don’t only focus on emoji, but-
Ceasar McDowell: [00:31:40] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:31:40] But Unicode what they try to do is essentially create consistency across platforms.
Ayushi Roy: [00:31:46] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:31:46] So give a certain amount of definition to what an emoji is and what it kind of should look like, so that there is that cross-platform consistency. So, things aren’t lost in translation, and they on the emoji subcommittee have representatives from all these different, you know, companies that create their own emoji sets.
Ayushi Roy: [00:32:04] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:32:04] And so we, yeah … I and just a few other people, like me and the other people basically wrote this proposal, kind of drafted like which professions we thought and presented a list of new professions all as female first-
Ayushi Roy: [00:32:20] Hmm.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:32:21] But said that they should also have male counterparts and also propose that any existing gendered emoji have the relevant counterpart, right? Because boys also get their haircuts-
Ceasar McDowell: [00:32:31] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:32:32] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:32:32] [laughs] and woman can also be detectives and we, yeah, took it, took it to this committee.
Ayushi Roy: [00:32:39] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:32:39] [laughs]. And it was just cool because everyone was like, “Yeah, honestly. that makes sense.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:32:44] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:32:45] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:32:45] [inaudible 00:32:46] [laughs]. There all this, you know, gen, gender equality like, but represented in emojis, which seems in many ways like, I don’t know, kind of, kind of funny or, or small maybe. But if you think about it, like that’s the thing that everybody from, from young kids through to, you know, me and myself, my mom, like-
Ayushi Roy: [00:33:07] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:33:07] … It’s just there. It’s on our phones and we’re using it. Right? And so to kind of like have representation-
Ayushi Roy: [00:33:14] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:33:14] … In this place where we are all seeing it on a daily basis, yeah, it feels in some ways like a lot bigger than just, “Oh, it’s an emoji [laughing].”
Ayushi Roy: [00:33:25] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:33:25] It’s actually really pretty cool.
Ayushi Roy: [00:33:27] Right? [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:33:27] And, uh, I love the fact that, you know, you, you put this prop- First of all, I just love the idea that there is something that we’re going to call the emoji governing board.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:33:36] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:33:36] I just, uh, you know, yeah, they’re cool. [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:33:38] [crosstalk 00:33:38] of governments for emoji, [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:33:40] Yeah, I think that is really cool, you know.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:33:43] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:33:43] Uh, but uh, you know that you’re able to write this proposal and send that proposal in … And it must have been interesting for them, because I wonder if there was like for that board or like, “Oh-”
Nicole Bleuel: [00:33:56] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:33:56] “… How do we not know that? How do we not-”
Nicole Bleuel: [00:34:00] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:34:01] “ … Pay attention to that? How did that happen? Thank you for saving us from ourselves.”
Nicole Bleuel: [00:34:06] [laughs]. I now know way more about emoji than any person probably should.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:34:10] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:34:10] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:34:10] Um, but obviously there are a lot of like … And, and they’re facing this now in general with I think a lot of other diversity-related requests for emoji, right? Like we, I mean we even in our proposal acknowledged like not everybody actually identifies as male or female. Right? And so what does that mean-
Ayushi Roy: [00:34:27] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:34:27] … In terms of creating now like gender neutral emojis is something that they’re like trying to do obviously like you know, racial diversity, skin tones. There’s a lot that goes into what truly is full representation, but also acknowledging like [laughing] at the end of the day, how many emoji do you want to have on those keyboards? Right.
Ayushi Roy: [00:34:48] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:34:48] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:34:48] I don’t know if you’ve experienced this, but I certainly … Sometimes I’m, I, I suffer like I’m trying to find one and I’m scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and I’m like, “Oh my God, why can’t I find this one thing I’m looking for?” There is like a million emoji right now. Right? So now have you imagined actually having seven billion emoji that represents seven billion different people-
Ceasar McDowell: [00:35:07] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:35:08] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:35:08] [laughs]. You’ll, you’ll, you’ll never find that one [laughing] that you’re looking for. So it is this kind of like, it’s this interesting balance. I don’t know … I’m, I’m not as, I’m not still day to day like involved in this kind of stuff, but it definitely, it is, it is hard to reach a level where everybody feels represented and heard and seen, especially in these kinds of like small micro-moments, if you will, like the emojis on your emoji keyboard.
Ayushi Roy: [00:35:37] You know, something that you mentioned earlier that it’s really, it’s sticking with me that I want to kind of come back to and, and maybe talk in the context of the emoji project was you mentioned about like how some people are focused on the return on investment, right? And they’re focused on like, what’s the ROI of working on Morse code? What’s the ROI of working on live caption or-
Nicole Bleuel: [00:35:56] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:35:56] … The, the emoji keyboard being more inclusive and you’re just like, you know … Well, that’s not the approach that you’ve taken to solving the problem, because you think about it as like creating more options. Right? And like I’m so curious like what that actually looks like. Can you give us like a story or an example of like that kind of tension that you’ve maybe had to navigate inside the organization to, you know, to make possible these very personal projects for you and turn them into like an opportunity for Google as a platform to tackle, you know, the issue, no matter how small, whether it’s via emoji or, or like you know, capturing everything on your phone?
Nicole Bleuel: [00:36:33] I think sometimes … And again this is my, my purely personal [crosstalk 00:36:36]-
Ayushi Roy: [00:36:36] Sure, sure.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:36:36] … On this.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:36:37] Yeah.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:36:37] But sometimes it’s like you gather your crew-
Ayushi Roy: [00:36:41] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:36:42] … You know, the crew that really no matter what is going to, is going to find a way to, to push this through-
Ayushi Roy: [00:36:47] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:36:48] Even if it means like working late night and weekends on kind of your own-
Ayushi Roy: [00:36:53] Mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:36:53] … Personal time a little bit. Like in some ways that’s kind of, yeah, it almost seems crazy. But like the, the emoji project was just … I kind of, I said this thing, I sent it to a bunch of people and ultimately found like the, the two or three people who were like, “Yeah, yes.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:37:09] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:37:10] Like, “Let’s just do this,” you know, and kind of were like, “We’re going to make this happen.” And sometimes that’s really all you need until you can kind of like, you have en- enough to, to make the case that it, it’s going to be big enough. Or you know, sometimes it’s a matter of like … And I think similarly with the, with the Morse code project a little bit, definitely in the beginning when you tell people that you want to make a Morse code keyboard, they’re like, “”What’s that now?” [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:37:41] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:37:41] [laughs]. We left that behind. [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:37:41] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:37:41] But, but then you kind of, I mean, you know, brought, Ayushi, the tears just now like [laughing]-
Ayushi Roy: [00:37:49] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:37:49] … Thinking about what that kind of means. And like that was really just something that eventually like really spoke to the team. Like Gboard is a team that works on, you know, creating all of these keyboards and all these different languages and like their goal really is to help anyone be able to communicate. And so even when they’re thinking about, you know, maybe building a keyboard for a language that is spoken by like a few hundred people, the point is those people should still be able to type-
Ayushi Roy: [00:38:14] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:38:15] … Like in their language to each other, you know?
Ayushi Roy: [00:38:17] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:38:17] And so this was just kind of another way into it, but I don’t think it would be useful to measure the success by like [laughs] how many people are now using Morse code, though I don’t know, that would be kind of cool. Uh, [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:38:33] [laughs].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:38:34] But really kind of that of like, “You know what? If we are a company that does actually stand for doing things for everyone, then this is just part of what that means.”
Ceasar McDowell: [00:38:43] Yeah. We, we entered this conversation of this whole season talking about new actors who are stepping into the civic space. And I think what’s really fascinating about this now, you know, I have been thinking about, okay Google, they’re out there, they’re doing all this stuff. They’re probably doing all these cool things that are really, you know, are traditional civic work.
Ayushi Roy: [00:39:05] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:39:06] But actually now I’m looking at this as actually as part of that, which is really in order for our complex public to be able to communicate with each other, they actually have to have something they can communicate with.
Ayushi Roy: [00:39:20] Mmh.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:39:21] And part of what I hear you saying is that, “Look, we’re, we’re in the business right now of breaking down the barriers that actually keep making it impossible for people to use this technology to communicate. And that’s what we’re doing.” And you’re doing it with the disability community, you’re doing it with with other kinds of communities. And one little piece of that is the keyboard, the-
Ayushi Roy: [00:39:43] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:39:43] … Data entry piece. How do we actually do that there? That somehow that can enable something-
Ayushi Roy: [00:39:49] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:39:49] You know, and again, it’s like you’re doing something around helping the public do what it needs to do, which is communicate to each other, but you’re doing it in your lane.
Ayushi Roy: [00:39:59] In your lane, yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:40:00] You know, in you’re you’re in your lane to say, “This is a piece we can do.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:40:02] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:40:03] Now somebody else has got to figure out what might they be talking about so that they come together-
Ayushi Roy: [00:40:08] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:40:08] And you’re not saying, “We know how to do that.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:40:10] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:40:10] You’re saying, “We can figure out this one piece-”
Ayushi Roy: [00:40:13] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:40:13] “… That talking can happen-”
Ayushi Roy: [00:40:15] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:40:15] “… And everyone can participate in it.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:40:17] Right.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:40:17] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:40:19] Oh, I love that. That’s like really, that’s a really incredible, I don’t know, it just like feels so appropriate, right? In terms of like thinking about all that’s happening in the world and just to find a way to push the needle forward in just the way that you know is like if everyone could just do that, that would make for a [laughing] much better environment. You know?
Ceasar McDowell: [00:40:41] Yeah, and you’re doing it from the standpoint of, I think there are two parts of that. It’s not just like, “We want to do it for everyone, but we want …” I mean, “That we want to stay in our lane and do this, but we want to make sure it works for everyone, and in order to make it for everyone, we actually have to figure out how to make it for all these small, distinctive groups.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:41:01] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:41:01] That’s how we build it for everyone.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:41:03] Again, that’s really not my idea. That’s just the curb cut.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:41:06] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:41:06] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:41:06] Yeah.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:41:07] It’s been around for a long time, right?
Ceasar McDowell: [00:41:10] Yeah, exactly.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:41:10] And then the digital curb cut [crosstalk 00:41:12].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:41:12] Right.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:41:13] And I just, yeah, I, I fully believe in that.
Ayushi Roy: [00:41:17] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:41:18] It’s very real. It’s very proven, and the cool thing is that everybody, what you’re talking about, you know, kind of staying in your lane and knowing what you have the opportunity to impact. Everybody has a lane.
Ayushi Roy: [00:41:30] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:41:30] Yes.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:41:31] Right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:41:31] Yeah.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:41:31] Everybody just does.
Ayushi Roy: [00:41:33] Yeah.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:41:33] And, and mine isn’t only as you know, somebody who happens to work at, at Google, right? It’s, it’s everything about me. I have many-
Ceasar McDowell: [00:41:41] Lanes.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:41:41] … You know, lanes depending on like-
Ayushi Roy: [00:41:42] Yeah.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:41:42] … Which, which had it is that I’m putting on and I had different lanes like when I was a student versus-
Ayushi Roy: [00:41:47] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Nicole Bleuel: [00:41:47] … Now, and that is a really great thing I think for everybody to recognize like, what is the lane that I am in, where I can have the biggest impact and there isn’t a need for me to change lanes. Right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:00] Mmh, mmh.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:42:01] There’s just a need for me to kind of go as fast as I can in this one.
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:05] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:06] That’s wonderful.
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:07] I love that. That’s beautiful.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:42:07] I might have [crosstalk 00:42:08] way too much. I don’t know, [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:12] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:12] That’s okay, that’s okay.
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:12] No, no. We, we take all the cheese, yeah. [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:13] Yeah. We can ask our guests who are already out there if you want to work on this metaphor for us, swapping it up. You know-
Nicole Bleuel: [00:42:18] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:18] [laughs], we would appreciate that.
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:20] No, we love it. Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:21] Uh, but as you said, you know, this curb cut effect, this is what we talk about when we talked about the importance of designing for the margins-
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:27] Yeah.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:42:27] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:27] It was really the clear, I think something we all need to embrace as we are out there, uh, creating new solutions-
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:34] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:35] … Uh, or old solutions, re-writing old solutions-
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:37] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:37] Uh, for the world.
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:39] Yup. Thank you.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:40] Thank you so much Nicole.
Nicole Bleuel: [00:42:41] Thank you so much for having me.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:45] That was fun, actually.
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:47] Yeah?
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:48] Yeah, I really enjoyed that conversation. You know, sometimes our conversations we have with people are really kind of deep and you’re going like-
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:54] Yes.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:54] … “Wow.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:55] Yeah, yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:55] You know, but this one I actually, you know, lot of interesting concepts-
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:59] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:59] But I found it fun.
Ayushi Roy: [00:43:00] Yes.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:43:01] And isn’t that interesting we’d go inside of a technology company and have a fun conversation?
Ayushi Roy: [00:43:06] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:43:06] But that’s not what we normally think is going to happen there. But I really enjoyed it and I really appreciate it. You know, this notion-
Ayushi Roy: [00:43:12] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:43:12] … Of the power of what you can do when you know your lane-
Ayushi Roy: [00:43:16] Yes.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:43:17] … And you work out of your lane the best you can-
Ayushi Roy: [00:43:19] And you know yourself. Yes.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:43:20] And you know yourself-
Ayushi Roy: [00:43:21] Yep, yep.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:43:21] … And you really work to try to bring-
Ayushi Roy: [00:43:23] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:43:24] … The folks who are at the margins-
Ayushi Roy: [00:43:25] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:43:25] … Into how you think about working in your lane.
Ayushi Roy: [00:43:27] Yeah. And you know, it’s like, I don’t know, maybe that’s why it felt fun too, is like, you know, you’re talking to somebody here who is very like self-aware of what they can and can’t do and uses what they can do to the best of their ability.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:43:39] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:43:40] And I don’t know why right now Lin-Manuel Miranda’s coming to my brain and you know, he’s the, you know, the brain behind Hamilton and, and Lin, he says, you know, in interviews all the time, like “This is all I’ve ever known my heart to be in.” And he used that little lane he had, the stage to turn it into a not so little lane, right?
Ceasar McDowell: [00:43:59] Right.
Ayushi Roy: [00:43:59] To turn it into like a huge platform to bring the conversation up. And the conversation that he brings up through Hamilton is, is … I’m not going to recount it, but it’s huge. Right? The impact is trem- tremendous. And yet it feels fun, because here you have somebody that like just knows what they can do and how they want to use that-
Ceasar McDowell: [00:44:19] Right.
Ayushi Roy: [00:44:20] … To the best of their ability to push the needle forward in whatever that way is. And you know, he’s rapping on stage, getting his Emmy and talking about Puerto Rico and talking about the disaster there, but via rap-
Ceasar McDowell: [00:44:32] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:44:32] … And like improv and comedy. And it’s like brilliant and, and humbling, right? At the same time, and I think like that way of approaching the world is just so powerful to me. And it makes me think about how we can use that approach, not just when we’re wearing our sort of company hat, like in Nicole’s case, but even in our personal lives.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:44:51] Well, you know, in that example you just gave, I, I think what’s really important to remember in that is that stay in your own lane. That’s about where you really have your kind of expertise or your-
Ayushi Roy: [00:45:02] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:45:03] … Authority to move, but that’s not saying that’s all who you are.
Ayushi Roy: [00:45:07] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:45:08] You can still bring all you, who you are into-
Ayushi Roy: [00:45:10] Into that, exactly.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:45:11] … A new relationship to that.
Ayushi Roy: [00:45:12] Exactly.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:45:13] You know, we’re actually a school of urban planning.
Ayushi Roy: [00:45:15] Yes.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:45:16] Right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:45:16] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:45:17] And we see a lot sometimes among people who are in this school, uh, students who are going through of this kind of notion of, do they know enough?
Ayushi Roy: [00:45:28] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:45:29] Right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:45:29] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:45:30] Because they’re dealing with communities that are really complex and there’s a lot of things and they’re aware of all those things. And I think it’s really interesting to, to kind of push folks to say, “Well …”
Ayushi Roy: [00:45:41] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:45:41] “… What’s the lane you want to move in as you engage that community?”
Ayushi Roy: [00:45:45] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:45:45] And be really clear about that.
Ayushi Roy: [00:45:47] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:45:47] Because that’s your way-
Ayushi Roy: [00:45:49] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:45:50] … Of actually being authentic with people in it.
Ayushi Roy: [00:45:52] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:45:52] You don’t have to do everything. No one’s expecting you to do everything.
Ayushi Roy: [00:45:56] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:45:56] You can’t know every issue. You can’t resolve every relationship.
Ayushi Roy: [00:46:00] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:46:00] What you can do is say, “Here’s the value I add …”
Ayushi Roy: [00:46:03] Right, right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:46:05] “And I really have that value.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:46:06] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:46:07] “Now, help me work with you-”
Ayushi Roy: [00:46:09] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:46:10] “… To bring that value.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:46:11] Exactly. And I think, you know, there’s something really incredible about like how humility in a personal sense ties into empowerment for others.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:46:22] Yes.
Ayushi Roy: [00:46:22] And like that as a sort of flip sides of the same coin is something that I haven’t considered until like a lot of these conversations this season and now with Nicole, you know. Again, it coming to their front of like her personal humility or like, you know, Dez and Candace from WBUR, their humility plays into the empowerment for a greater community.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:46:42] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:46:42] And that’s really beautiful.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:46:44] Many years ago, I was flying into Florida-
Ayushi Roy: [00:46:46] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:46:48] … International Airport.
Ayushi Roy: [00:46:48] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:46:48] I, I was in Miami.
Ayushi Roy: [00:46:49] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:46:50] … And there’s this cafeteria, big old cafeteria. So I got some food. I’m sitting at the table and I’m eating.
Ayushi Roy: [00:46:55] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:46:56] And you know, I have my little tray and you know, I was in this [inaudible 00:47:01], could have been.
Ayushi Roy: [00:47:02] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:47:02] And, uh, I’m picking up everything and I’m getting ready. You know, I’m kind of have my napkin. I’m wiping a little bit-
Ayushi Roy: [00:47:08] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:47:08] … The table and this guy comes over to me and he puts his hand on my shoulder and he says, “This is my job.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:47:16] Oh.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:47:18] “I want to do this job.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:47:21] Wow.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:47:21] You know, and-
Ayushi Roy: [00:47:23] Wow.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:47:24] What I loved about it was I was thinking, “I’ve got to clean up, so they don’t have to do as much.” And he just said, “No, don’t take that away from me.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:47:30] Mmh.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:47:32] Right? “This is mine.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:47:33] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:47:34] “And I’m proud of-”
Ayushi Roy: [00:47:35] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:47:35] “… What I do here.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:47:36] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:47:36] And I don’t know why that story just came up, but maybe it’s because maybe sometimes this thing of stay in your lane causes discomfort-
Ayushi Roy: [00:47:43] Mmh.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:47:44] You know, because you’re worrying about the other parts of things.
Ayushi Roy: [00:47:48] Yeah, yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:47:49] And not recognize that other people are maybe doing things that they also want to do.
Ayushi Roy: [00:47:53] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:47:54] You know?
Ayushi Roy: [00:47:54] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:47:54] And they want to do it with their own sense of pride.
Ayushi Roy: [00:47:56] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:47:57] And they don’t want it kind of flipped way from them.
Ayushi Roy: [00:48:00] Wow. Thanks so much Ceasar. I’ve been, I have been and I still am Ayushi Roy [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:48:06] And I’m still Ceasar McDowell.
Ayushi Roy: [00:48:07] [laughs]. Thanks so much for listening.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:48:09] Right, bye. We are a production of the Department of Urban Studies and Planning at MIT, with the support of MIT’s office of Open Learning.
Ayushi Roy: [00:48:19] Our sound is produced by David Lishansky, our content by Julia Curbera, and Misael Galdamez. I’m Ayushi Roy.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:48:26] I’m Ceasar McDowell.
Ayushi Roy: [00:48:27] And you can find us online at themove.mit.edu.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:48:32] And on our Medium site at-
Ayushi Roy: [00:48:33] Medium.com/themovemit, as well as our Twitter and Facebook. Thanks so much.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:48:40] Goodbye.
