S2E9: A Community’s “Spark” (with Antonio Moya-Latorre)
In Episode 9, The Move Podcast interviews Antonio Moya-Latorre, artist, architect and planner. Co-hosts Ceasar and Ayushi join Toni in a piano practice studio at MIT, where he improvises (live!) using some of the emotional themes he felt while facilitating community-centered development in Brazil. Interspersed throughout Toni’s improvisations, we talk about how planners can use the arts to inform, enhance, and reflect on the lasting impacts of their work. What does it mean to spark meaningful, sustainable and self-actualizing work in local communities?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:00:00] When you are for example, listening to a symphony, you adopt a contemporary behavior that enables you to listen more, more carefully to the music, right?
So somehow I think that planners can also be artists in the sense that they have to contemplate the people that they work with in order to understand how they can be more, more helpful and contribute better.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:00:27] Hey Ayushi.
Ayushi Roy: [00:00:28] Hey, how’s it going, Ceasar?
Ceasar McDowell: [00:00:29] It’s going okay. Now this time, uh, we’re looking at things, uh, a little differently. You know, we’ve, we’ve been sitting, listening to people being in these really interesting conversations.
Ayushi Roy: [00:00:39] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:00:40] Uh, but today we have something really special, which is Antonio Moya-Latorre, we all call him Toni. Uh, but what’s so special about what we’re going to do today is here’s someone who’s working as a planner. He’s an architecting musician and he’s bringing all three of those things together.
Ayushi Roy: [00:00:59] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:00:59] In the way that he does his work. And really helping us to look at what happens when you create new civic spaces. When you bring those three things together, when you’re an accomplished architect, an accomplished musician, an accomplished planner.
Ayushi Roy: [00:01:13] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:01:14] You get some very interesting things happening.
Ayushi Roy: [00:01:16] And it’s providing such an incredible way for us to finish our, this season after we’ve heard so many incredible speakers think with us about their work and the way that they see community. And now we’re gonna do a little bit of a different kind of listening with Tony as he reflects also with us about his work in a community, uh, very important work. And he does it with an instrument, with piano.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:01:41] Yeah, so we’re gonna go into his piano studio and we’re gonna sit there with him. We’re gonna do our interview there and he’s gonna need not just talk to us, but play. Right? Inspired by, at the moment what comes to him and what is his reflection on the work that he’s doing. Really bringing his music as a way of explaining what he does.
Ayushi Roy: [00:02:05] And just for all our listeners out there, everything you’re about to hear is not pre- prepped by any of us. It’s not prepped by him. It’s not a clip of an existing piece he’s written or anything, even though he does write incredible original music. This is all something that just kind of happens as a way of him trying to express his feelings about this incredible work. And this is the only place that what you’re about to hear exists. Is the only place this music exists. So I hope you enjoy the piano as much as we do.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:02:39] Tony, how you doing?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:02:40] Hi, good morning. And then than-
Ceasar McDowell: [00:02:41] [laughs].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:02:41] … thanks.
Ayushi Roy: [00:02:42] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:02:42] Good. So, we just kinda came up to you months ago and said, “You’re doing really interesting work.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:02:48] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:02:48] “We really wanna have you kinda talk about the work you’ve been doing, how you’ve been approaching the work of kind of community building from the standpoint of being an artist.”
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:02:58] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:02:58] Uh, and then in the midst of that, we found out that part of your artistry is being a musician also.
Ayushi Roy: [00:03:05] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:03:06] And, uh-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:03:06] That’s right.
Ayushi Roy: [00:03:07] So we’ve joined Tony in the closet under the staircase.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:03:09] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:03:09] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:03:10] So for, yeah. If you were with us right now, you would be in a very small room. Inside of an enormous university, uh, that is fitting a baby grand piano and three people. And microphones and I’m telling you this is actually pretty cramped.
Ayushi Roy: [00:03:28] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:03:28] But it’s going to be really great. Nice and intimate.
Ayushi Roy: [00:03:31] Exactly. It’s gonna sound great. It’s all that matters.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:03:34] Yeah, yeah. It’s really great. So what have you been up to?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:03:37] So well, I mean this is a very hectic moment of the semester. I just defended my thesis here at MIT.
Ayushi Roy: [00:03:44] Hoo!
Ceasar McDowell: [00:03:44] Whoa! You did a thesis.
Ayushi Roy: [00:03:45] [crosstalk 00:03:45].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:03:45] And I guess this is part of my, thesis defence somehow because I want to include some audio recording to my written the- thesis.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:03:53] Uh-huh [affirmative]. What was your thesis about?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:03:55] So it’s about how planners, by planners I mean facilitators, community leaders.
Ayushi Roy: [00:04:01] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:04:01] Even practitioners can spark some meaningful, meaningful change, eh, in communities that are dealing with some sort of trauma or some vulnerabilities. And in this regard, I think that art is about powerful means to spark change.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:04:15] So what do you mean by like traumas or vulnerabilities?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:04:18] So they are the, the, the communities I’m, I’ve worked with, eh, are communities dealing with lots of problems. This summer I spent two months working in Brasil, in a community that has a huge dumping site in the middle of the community. That will be an example of, of an urban trauma. It’s an ongoing eh, experience that they have been dealing with for many years.
Ayushi Roy: [00:04:39] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:04:40] That becomes traumatic at some point because it’s- they cannot stand it anymore. They have to do something to, to over commit.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:04:46] Can I just say something about that? I mean it’s just interesting, you know, ’cause the first one I thought, I heard you say the word trauma, I was thinking, “Oh wow, some big event like-”
Ayushi Roy: [00:04:54] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:04:54] “Katrina” Or something else that came and hit. And I think that’s how we normally think about it. But it’s really interesting, you know, you’re saying, well, here’s something that’s been in the community-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:05:01] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:05:01] … for a long time. And it’s a trauma, also?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:05:04] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:05:04] Right, like crises don’t need to be these acute-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:05:07] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:05:07] … thing. They can actually be chronic-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:05:09] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:05:09] … problems.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:05:09] Exactly.
Ayushi Roy: [00:05:09] That communities face.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:05:09] So in, in, in my thesis I actually differentiate between those two types of trauma.
Ayushi Roy: [00:05:13] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:05:14] Like shocking events and community experiences that become traumatic as well. Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:05:17] Well, and you’re advocating that artists such as yourself go into these communities and do what exactly?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:05:25] So yeah, because art is a, is a very natural means of expression. Uh, that doesn’t rely always on verbal communication, I think is a powerful-
Ayushi Roy: [00:05:33] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:05:33] … tool to start addressing issues. So in this case, in the community in Brazil where I was working on a, we organized an art festival with lots of different workshops, with theater, with performances on the street, with music to start addressing the issue of the dumping site that the community wants to transform into a park for the neighborhood. So yeah, we used art and work, uh, related workshops to start talking about the importance of, of keeping the site clean and changing it’s use into a park.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:06:04] You know, I’ve, I’ve had the distinct pleasure of reading your thesis.
Ayushi Roy: [00:06:08] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:06:08] [laughs]. But one of the things I remember you saying, which I think is really important is that, “It’s not just about cleaning it up because they had actually-”
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:06:17] Yeah. Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:06:17] … cleaned the park before and the traumas still remained, right?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:06:20] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:06:21] So what’s, what’s the difference between just like cleaning it up-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:06:23] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:06:23] … and what it is you’re talking about?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:06:25] Yeah, exactly. That, that happened. So then the community undertook a huge collective cleanup. But they realized that it was not enough and neighbors kept throwing trash on the, on the dumping site. So, eh, there needs to be some sort of cultural or behavioral change in the community, so that they stop throwing trash. And that’s how we came up with the idea of the festival to, somehow to showcase that this space could be used for something else, something different. And that way start changing little and little lay the behavior of the community.
Ayushi Roy: [00:06:54] There’s so much there. I’m just thinking about like, I don’t know when we often send different kinds of other volunteers, you know, I’m thinking of like the Peace Corps.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:07:02] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:07:02] Which Toni and I were talking about recently and some other sorts of, you know, volunteers go into these environments that are dealing with a lot of pain, deep seated pain. I feel like this solution is often in the form of, you know, it could be cleanup up, it could be money, it could be, um, just more manpower. I don’t think we really think about like what it means to reprogram the way in which we see our role within this community.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:07:26] Yeah. So in, my experiences, it will be another context. Usually like transforming a dumping site into a park will be a straight forward task. Right? We clean it up, we gather the resources, we design it and we build it. But what happens in these kinds of more complex context is that there are lot of uncertain issues that, that might arise. So many things have to be addressed simultaneously.
So eh, after this festival that we organized, there had been a lot of other activities, monthly events to keep, eh, the space in use, a new leadership emerged out of the festival. And then also we collected ideas for the actual design of the park. So many things have to happen at the same time to make sure that, that the behavior changes. Because otherwise just cleaning it up, it was not enough.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:08:10] So, you know, we’re sitting in this room with you and a piano and stuff. So, what did the park sound like before you started working on it?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:08:17] So yeah, the, the park or-
Ayushi Roy: [00:08:19] I love that question. [Laughs].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:08:20] [crosstalk 00:08:20].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:08:21] No, the park. What did it sound like-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:08:22] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:08:22] … before you started working on it?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:08:24] Oh yeah. Good question.
Ayushi Roy: [00:08:40] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:08:42] Ooh.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:08:43] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:08:44] Yeah. I don’t know if I wanna go play that part- [crosstalk 00:08:46]. [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:08:47] Yeah.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:08:47] Yeah the idea here is somehow this idea of vulnarabilities that are pulling down… And there might be some hope… But always these vulnerabilities are pulling down. Trauma, is there, right?
Ceasar McDowell: [00:09:24] Trauma is there all the time.
Ayushi Roy: [00:09:26] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:09:26] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:09:26] And so even if you’re going
Ayushi Roy: [00:09:27] forward. -
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:09:27] Reminding.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:09:28] … reminding you.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:09:29] Reminding you.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:09:29] Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Wow.
Ayushi Roy: [00:09:32] Just inescapable. Like it feel.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:09:33] Yeah. It feels-
Ayushi Roy: [00:09:34] I don’t know. I hope our listeners get a sense of this but sitting in this room right now, I feel like my own, I dunno if it’s my energy or my optimism, it feels like it’s dropped-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:09:46] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:09:47] … in just sort of, listening and processing that sound.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:09:50] Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s the point of music, right? I, you-
Ayushi Roy: [00:09:53] Yeah.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:09:53] … can just meet that feeling without using words.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:09:56] Wow.
Ayushi Roy: [00:09:57] Wow.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:09:57] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:09:58] So you’re in this community. Just tell us a little bit about it. What was it like?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:10:03] It’s in Brazil, Sao Paulo, eh, this community actually the official name that they use to describe these kinds of communities is favela, right? The slum. Which is a very loaded word, eh, there’s a lot of stigma associated with it. But when I arrived there for the first time, my first feeling was not that of a violent place or a very vulnerable place, but rather, that of an active and vibrant community with lots of children playing on the street. Lot of businesses open, a lot of activity. Right? It’s true that after spending two months there, you start feeling this, this weight-
Ayushi Roy: [00:10:40] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:10:40] … that, that is over the community all the time. That’s like what they represent with the music, right? You feel, you feel this heavy weight on your head and I was there just for two months. Like I could imagine living there.
Ayushi Roy: [00:10:51] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:10:52] Spending your nights there. There’s something in the environment that is not, it’s not right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:10:57] Mm-hmm [affirmative]. It’s interesting because that observation that, “Oh well when I first show up.”
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:11:03] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:11:03] I see all these things.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:11:04] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:11:05] That appear to say things are okay.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:11:08] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:11:08] I mean not necessarily. Okay. But like people are having a full life in this community.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:11:13] Certainly.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:11:14] The kids are playing and stuff like that.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:11:15] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:11:15] But then you stay there little longer and you began to realize-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:11:18] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:11:18] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:11:19] … the energy that’s-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:11:20] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:11:20] … in this space, often there’s a different energy also, working like, against-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:11:25] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:11:25] … or in opposition to what you’re-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:11:27] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:11:27] … actually observing.
Ayushi Roy: [00:11:28] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:11:29] Fascinating. So, okay, I was just thinking when you were first talking about this I was saying, okay, so why don’t you describe what you do as just community organizing?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:11:40] Well, my, my proposal and my thesis actually, that when you are invited to join an initiative that’s already there, in a community like this one, the first step is to contemplate, right? Eh, I have felt that being in planning school, many planners tend to offer solutions too quick.
Ayushi Roy: [00:12:01] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:12:01] Before even understanding the, the complexity that, that’s there. So, I, in my design invite practitioners to adopt a very contemplative behavior to try to perceive the energy or and the complexity of these communities before trying to offer any kinds of solutions or proposals. So, yeah, this, the first idea-
Ayushi Roy: [00:12:22] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:12:22] … is this contemplation, which is actually a concept I have borrowed from the art world.
Ayushi Roy: [00:12:27] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:12:27] When you are for example, eh, listening to a symphony, you adopt a contemlative behavior that enables you to listen more and more carefully to the music. Right? So somehow I think like, planners can also be artists in the sense that they have to contemplate the people that they work with in order to understand how they can be more, more helpful and contribute better.
Ayushi Roy: [00:12:48] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:12:48] What do you mean by contemplative?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:12:51] Okay. Contemplative means being empathetic with people. Being sensitive.
Ayushi Roy: [00:12:57] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:12:57] Trying to, to listen. Trying to build trust. There is a concept in the action research literature, they call it the friendly outsider.
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:05] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:13:06] Which I’m not super excited about, but I think there is something there. You have to be just a normal human being, not come, eh, there with the idea of the expert that you are gonna offer solutions. You have to empathize with people. And then once you, I have been submerged into the culture there, then you’ll start together with the team there to offer proposals and solutions to test them. Right? But the idea of-
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:29] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:13:29] … empathy and sensitivity and care and treating, treating, eh, people with, with love is embedded in this idea of contemplation.
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:36] Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I’m thinking a bit about like sort of, you know, if you walk in as a hammer, everything kinda looks like a nail and what you seem to be describing is to just take all that hat off.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:13:48] Uh-huh [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:48] And walk in, like you said, just with yourself.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:13:50] Exactly. Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:51] Right? And just be witness-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:13:53] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:54] … to the environment for a while, before you even begin to make-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:13:58] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:13:58] … a decision that you want to solve something or…
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:13:59] Exactly. Now avo-
Ayushi Roy: [00:14:00] Yeah.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:14:00] … avoiding stigmas and preconceptions. If I had arrived there believing, “Oh, okay, this is a favela. This is gonna be super dangerous. Um, I’m gonna be very careful.” And I avoided that. I had already talked with some community leaders there and we had been planning something. We had to do something related to culture and art. Eh, so I arrived there and I just started talking to es- I didn’t even speak Portuguese-
Ayushi Roy: [00:14:26] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:14:26] [laughs].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:14:26] … properly. And I am a Spanish speaker, but somehow we communicated very good. I met Ester, the community leader there, she is a young architect. And it just, it was very natural and we meet and they buil- build trust and we started sharing personal experiences and professional experiences and after a couple of days of contemplating we started coming up with this idea of the festival as a spark, which is one of the ideas that I have in my thesis, there has to be a spark that starts somehow moving things forward.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:14:57] So, oh, I’m really glad you said the last thing. The last two things you said. One is like, you know, you’re in a state where like after a couple of days-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:15:06] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:15:06] … you ran this, ’cause at first when you were talking about, you know, being contemplative in this and using contemplation as a way to understand the place-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:15:13] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:15:13] … I was thinking, “Oh you’re gonna be there for a year.”
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:15:16] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:15:16] “… for two years. Just waiting and seeing to understand.” But you’re basically saying you can actually do that in a short period of time.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:15:23] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:15:23] It’s about the way you enter-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:15:24] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:15:25] … the community.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:15:26] Yeah, exactly. So I mean contemplation I think is something that you cultivate, your whole life, right? Is not something that you just apply when you are after community. So you have already to be somehow, prepared to come, to arrive here with a contemplative mindset.
Ayushi Roy: [00:15:40] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:15:41] Uh-huh [laughs].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:15:41] But yes because, I mean we are, we are planners, we are practitioners and oftentimes constrainted. So we have to find soon, like an entry point to projects that, that can as a test and, and, and experience how changes might look like in the future. So it’s that type of contemplation that you could debate before, but then you arrive there and maybe, in this case it only took us two days or three days to come up with this idea. It would have been one week, two weeks. I mean it depends on the context. I, it’s very difficult to generalize. But the idea is that there comes some action out of this contemplation. Is not just about sharing and over romanticizing situation there.
Ayushi Roy: [00:16:21] [laughs].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:16:21] It’s trying to find, uh, quick first step experiment to tinker with what you have there. To see if that can, that might br- bring meaningful change into the community or not. And maybe, eh, in the future you switch to your strategy, strategy. That might be also a possibility.
Ayushi Roy: [00:16:37] Can you play that spark for us?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:16:39] Yeah, so for-
Ayushi Roy: [00:16:40] [laughs].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:16:41] … yeah. This part itself is just-
Ayushi Roy: [00:16:43] It sounds like an exciting moment.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:16:47] … something, it’s very, uh, cute and, um, bright and brings light. Right? But there, then also I was thinking the, the, the sparking theme somehow I, I wanted to associate with eh, with children because also I feel that this change has to be a generational change. So the sparking projects have to relate a lot on children and next to new generation. So that the theme I was thinking about, looks like this or sounds like this. This is how it would start. And the idea is that through, throughout the music we arrive to a more tuneful ending, but the beginning of the sparking theme should sound like these. Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:17:59] Wow. [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:18:00] I-
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:01] I’m endlessly impressed. [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:18:02] … [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:02] Because also this is not like, this is something you’re just doing right now. You’re just putting your, like emotion into sound?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:18:10] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:11] I mean that’s shocking to me. Like I’ve practiced piano for so much of my life, but I still can only barely sight read it. [laughs].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:18:18] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:18:18] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:18] Let alone come up with something.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:18:19] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:20] [crosstalk 00:18:20]. [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:18:21] [laughs].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:18:22] Yeah, it’s difficult. I mean I have, I have been exploring for the past week some different themes and I have not arrived quite to a, to a complete piece or something like that. And I might, I might not actually write one because this, this idea of the spark is so highly context dependent that-
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:38] Yeah.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:18:39] … maybe just having a couple of themes and improvising, eh, each time differently, is how it should be.
Ayushi Roy: [00:18:44] Yeah.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:18:45] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:18:46] So you know, in this season we’ve been really focused on, you know, people who are like coming from different traditions, who are part of supporting new processes in a community-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:18:57] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:18:57] … that really connect people. And start to build their own kind of, kind of connection-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:19:03] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:19:03] … to support their ability to be working together in a democratic society. Uh, though, right now in this time and age, it’s kinda hard to know what democracy means anymore.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:19:15] Yeah, yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:19:15] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:19:15] You know, but you know, taking the label of the whole democracy off and just really focused on the notion of how the people who are living together in relationship with each other. Right?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:19:23] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:19:24] And you’re seeing this as a way of, of doing that. It’s actually interesting for me because even though you’re an artist, you’re a musician, you’re an architect.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:19:34] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:19:34] You know, uh, but you’ve talked about the planner?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:19:38] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:19:38] And this, right? You’ve really kind of talked about the planner and the planner’s role in all of this. And I wanna just go back to something else you said, which was about a mindset.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:19:49] Uh-huh [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:19:49] And what I hear you really suggesting is that, there is this… I wanna go back to this, you know, contemplations, contemplative mindset.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:19:56] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:19:57] Is something that you’re really advocating that planners need to adopt.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:20:00] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:20:01] As a way of being in their work.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:20:03] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:20:03] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:20:04] Absolutely.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:20:05] That’s so different than, you know, there’s, there’s been a whole history of planners engaging with communities from the standpoint of being advocates for-
Ayushi Roy: [00:20:15] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:20:15] … or organizing for.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:20:17] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:20:17] But not a lot that I know of, where people are saying, what’s the mindset?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:20:21] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:20:22] That’s really going to be important for planners to have to move forward?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:20:26] Yeah. There is a direct reference here, which is Don Schon’s eh, idea of the reflective practitioner, right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:20:33] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:20:33] So he was a professor here at MIT, the Department for Urban Studies. He had this idea of, eh, of adopting some, some sort of reflective mindset, both when you are in action also when you are reflecting on action. So when you’re embedded in, but those are when you step back. So actually what I did in my thesis… So honestly when, when we were there in Brazil, all these things that I’m talking about contemplation, in this part, there are other concepts that I have not talked here about now.
We were not using those terms properly somehow that there was an intuition there. But after this experience, I have had time to reflect on that and I came up with those concepts with that state of reflecting on action.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:21:17] Right.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:21:17] Once you have finished or ideally even when you are there. Right? But sometimes when there’s little time you are very, very, we’re working intensely so to finish something. But yeah, intention will be the difference.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:21:29] Yeah.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:21:29] Or contemplation. I just prefer to use the idea of contemplation because of the art world that I come from.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:21:35] Uh-huh [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:21:35] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:21:35] And just thinking about the way in which this mindset could be a sort of, best practice for so many other groups of people who-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:21:49] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:21:49] … intervene in civic life-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:21:51] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:21:52] … to use. I mean I’m just thinking about all the other players, right? Like, you know, developers, the, the, the finance folks. The, um, architects. I mean there’s so many planners of course, like so many people involved in this-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:22:03] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:03] … space. Not just from civic society and government, but from the private sector.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:22:07] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:07] And I think that there’s such a perspective about providing solutions.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:22:11] Actually, yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:11] Or, or seeing communities as markets-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:22:14] Yeah, absolutely.
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:15] … for sale. And I’m just thinking about, how much already even on those, in that language has been lost around-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:22:24] Absolutely.
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:24] … contemplation or affection-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:22:26] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:26] Or empathy or listening, even just basic-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:22:28] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:28] … witness.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:22:29] Yeah. So I have actually, a very concrete example of, of lack of contemplation also related to trauma. And there was a, an earthquake in, that hit the South of Mexico in 2017.
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:40] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:22:41] We visited the, one of the towns, Spanish school. Over the summer this year. And we visited the one woman whose house had been rebuilt by, by planners from, from Mexico city. And this context is a fully different context. It’s nothing… It’s also Mexico, but it’s a different, like a different-
Ayushi Roy: [00:22:59] Right.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:22:59] … lifestyle. And we saw the house, the house looked good, at least my first impression is that the house looked good and it was big. There was a kitchen, there were a few rooms and we ask the woman, “Oh, nice oh, your house ha- have, has been rebuilt properly?” And she said, “Well, yes, but this house has nothing to do with my lifestyle.”
Ayushi Roy: [00:23:18] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:23:18] “I didn’t have a kitchen like this before. We used to have a, an oven in the, in the courtyard. But no one asked me how my house looked like. I just received this, this project that was build and I have to live here.”
So that’s an example of, lack of contemplation, attention and sensitivity, right? So and, and is, it’s very, it’s dangerous because you are forcing people to live in a way there, they, they are not used to. So that’s why, I guess my, my thesis is, is directed to individuals. So they reflect on their own practice in, I do remember, I remember doing my defense last Monday. We were talking about uh, if my thesis was too individualistic or why not more collectivity. And I have been thinking about that and indeed, I think, yeah, that the audience of my thesis at this stage of, uh, this is individual practitioners.
Ayushi Roy: [00:24:09] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:24:10] To invite them to reflect on their own practice as I have done with my own practice.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:24:15] It’s interesting that story you told about, uh, a woman’s house because in some sense, by not being in that really kinda open way of engagement with her and involvement with her, they’ve actually re-traumatized her.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:24:27] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:24:27] Her house now becomes a place of trauma.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:24:29] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:24:29] Oh, wow.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:24:30] As opposed to a place of-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:24:31] Peace.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:24:32] … which is a refuge and peace.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:24:33] Very tough. Right?
Ceasar McDowell: [00:24:34] Yeah. So everyday she walks in-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:24:36] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:24:36] … she’s like constantly reminded-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:24:38] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:24:38] … of that. We do that in communities all the time-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:24:41] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:24:41] … right? With big projects and stuff.
Ayushi Roy: [00:24:43] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:24:43] You can come in. If you’re not really engaging and bringing them in, then you can end up thinking you’ve made a physical improvement.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:24:50] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:24:50] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:24:51] But an actuality really reinforce that sense of trauma.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:24:54] That’s often the case. And, and, and many planners are obsessed with this idea of impact and, and then providing houses for, for-
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:01] [laughs].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:25:02] 1000 people. Right? But under what conditions?
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:05] That’s so true.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:25:06] What life? I prefer to talk about meaningful change rather than impactful change.
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:11] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:25:11] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:25:12] Yeah. So, so changes that are meaningful for the people that-
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:16] I love that, I never thought about. I mean there’s so many. Like, you know, I’m thinking of all the corporations that are mission driven now.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:25:21] Yeah, yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:22] Right? And a lot of our generations focus on working for organizations that are mission driven or impact driven.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:25:28] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:28] And I’m just thinking about, well, right. I never realized that being mission driven might mean that you’re actually, trading off something else.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:25:37] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:37] And in this case it might be listening.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:25:39] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:40] Right? You might not be as observant or reflective if you’re just again coming in as a hammer.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:25:46] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:46] Trying to create impact or trying to, you’d be driven by mission instead of by empathy.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:25:51] Yeah. Exactly.
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:52] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:25:53] And putting that word meaningful in front of, change.
Ayushi Roy: [00:25:56] Yeah. Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:25:56] In front of impact, it is really important-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:25:57] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:25:57] … because it didn’t require… It re-centers.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:25:59] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:26:00] Right.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:26:00] Centers you in a very different space. So, you know, you, you’ve sparked so much in us. [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:26:06] Right. [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:26:06] In this conversation.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:26:07] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:26:08] Uh, that we didn’t get very far into what you’re doing. So like tell us a little bit about what was the spark, what did you do in the community?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:26:13] Yeah, okay, so the, the idea of this festival that we organized there was to raise awareness and to start or to build on the existing capabilities that the community has there. So also I have been exploring literature to, to develop the conceptual framework of my thesis.
And there are these two concepts and one is called Conscientização. It’s a Portuguese word in English will be conscientization.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:26:40] Sure, right.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:26:40] Or the act of becoming aware of something. It was going by Brazilian pedagogue Freire in 1968.
Ayushi Roy: [00:26:46] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:26:47] And the other concept is to say the of capabilities that Amartya Sen developing his capability approach, in the late 1990s. And so the idea of this festival was to raise awareness and build capabilities specifically tied to the infrastructure that we need for the festival. So we started doing workshops in the four or five weeks before the arts festival workshops with children to design the, the image of the festival. We had photography workshops, we have, we had carpentry workshops with the community leaders to, to learn how to build a physical or a temporary architecture that we would need for the festival.
And then we had landscaping workshops with another community leader from, from Rio de Janeiro. He came and, and started showing the, the community there how to build a part out of recycled tires.
Ayushi Roy: [00:27:42] Wow.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:27:42] So it wa- it was very interesting. So we were, we were building capacity there specifically to make the festival happen, so that the day of the festival we could have this infrastructure, we could have already a group of community members engaged in the process. And then it was the day of the festival itself. It was eight hours of intense activities and workshops. We had this theater play on the street. That for me was very impressive witnessing how a hundred neighbors were sitting on the street watching these two players perform. We got a huge, eh, participatory design workshop to start collecting ideas for the design of the festival.
So yeah, I mean it was super intense. I’m happy also to share some links and some-
Ayushi Roy: [00:28:22] Yeah.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:28:23] … of the images to our audience here.
Ayushi Roy: [00:28:24] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:28:25] Yeah, we’ll, we’ll definitely on our notes. We will actually have those up there so people can-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:28:28] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:28:29] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:28:29] … can see things ’cause it is pretty visually stunning, em-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:28:31] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:28:32] … to see the before and the during.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:28:35] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:28:36] And the continued work was
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:28:37] Yeah. That’s important.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:28:37] ’Cause there’s no afterwards.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:28:38] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:28:38] ’Cause it’s continuing. It’s-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:28:39] There’s no spark if there is no continuation, right?
Ceasar McDowell: [00:28:42] Right. Then it’s not a spark. It’s something-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:28:44] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:28:44] … else. Right. So let me just, I wanna go a little bit further in this idea that, okay, so you had all these activities and what was interesting about the way you did it is everything you mentioned as an activity was actually building capacity.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:28:59] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:29:00] In the community to do that thing.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:29:01] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:29:02] So you didn’t, you could’ve done a lot of this yourself.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:29:06] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:29:06] Right? Or you could have had other people who woulda just kinda work on it, but you actually were always whatever had to be done to make the festival happen. The new built workshops and things around it to actually build capacity of people to there who live there to actually do that work.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:29:21] Yeah. Yeah. Actually, and, and you mentioned before democracy, there is one definition of democracy by, by Dayna Cunningham, the director of the Community Innovators lab in, in, in MIT, in DUSP. She says, “Democracy”, it is not exactly the phrase, but something like, “democracy… Democracy is solving a problem in order to let you solve the next problem” or something like that. Right?
Ceasar McDowell: [00:29:44] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:29:44] So with the spark, we were building capacity, to make the festival happen, but also keeping in mind the, the complexity of the community so that the project could move forward once the festival was over. And one of the most important capacities that emerged out of this festival was the, was the leadership team that that was built there. So before the festival there was, eh, Ester and her father, like two community leaders who were doing an amazing job there. But they were overwhelmed, that’s, that’s, that’s the truth. They were overwhelmed and with this community’s 15,000 inhabitants, eh, big.
Ayushi Roy: [00:30:17] Wow.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:30:18] And just two community leaders taking care of everything. It’s, it’s too much and beyond everything else they have to pay attention to in life. So the, in this festival we brought together a team of 10 leaders. Young leaders does this, this idea right there, the young leaders that that came together to work on this shared project, the festival and now they are part of the leadership team. And every month they are organizing different activities-
Ayushi Roy: [00:30:47] Wow.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:30:48] … and they are doing a lot of stuff there. They are having capacity building workshops.
Ayushi Roy: [00:30:52] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:30:52] They are learning marketing, they are, they’re improving their construction skills and so on. And it’s not only Ester and Hermelinda who have to…
Ayushi Roy: [00:31:00] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:31:00] … do all the whole work. They have a team, a crew of, of leaders doing the stuff with them. So, that’s very positive outcome.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:31:08] So you start to do a little bit of that.
Ayushi Roy: [00:31:09] Wow.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:31:09] Can you actually-
Ayushi Roy: [00:31:10] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:31:11] … play us through that transition?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:31:12] Eh? Yeah, so actually, well, I have, I have two more themes. Idea of, of, of capacity or capability is actually the opposite of vulnerability. If vulnerability was downwards, for capacity of something upwards. Right? Something like that. It’s of generating capability. There is still this vulnerability pulling down.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:32:03] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:32:03] But the capacity of people, the intention is trying to move upwards and overcome this structural operation.
Ayushi Roy: [00:32:10] Yeah. Like, it was swimming through mad. Yeah. [laughs].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:32:10] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:32:10] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:32:10] It’s like swimming through mud. And you are just rained on, but I’m like “No. I’m gonna make this happen.”
Ceasar McDowell: [00:32:10] Yeah. Right. It is it moving forward? You gonna to forward?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:32:10] Yeah. And also the year of conscientization, I mentioned before.
Ayushi Roy: [00:32:10] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:32:10] Of becoming a world which I think is a more nostalgic melody.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:32:10] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:32:10] But the capacity of people, the intention of people is trying to move upwards and overcome this structural allocation.
Ayushi Roy: [00:32:10] Yeah, like it was like swimming through mud. Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:32:12] [laughs].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:32:13] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:32:14] Like how when you become aware of? I’m like weighing me down, but I’m like, “Nope, I’m gonna make this-”
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:32:18] [crosstalk 00:32:19].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:32:21] There is moving forward. We’re gonna, we gonna forward.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:32:21] Yeah. And then there’s also like, of conscientitazion, I mentioned before swimming through mud. Just like someone did marketing, he was like neighboring, enemy of conscientization I mentioned before, of becoming hour, which I think is a more nostalgic melody because somehow when you become aware of your own reality, is not always optimistic. It’s not pessimistic. It’s just for me.
It’s nostalgic sound. Right? So that it slowly bills on the… Sparking project. What I was thinking for head… and concentrated, concentration was something like this.
It’s a bit nostalgic, but the idea of my thesis is combining that with capabilities so that it’s slowly builds on the sparking, uh, project and at the end it becomes too far. I don’t have quite, uh, concrete end for that, but eh, different points. Yeah. I guess.
For example, here we have the sparking theme. And concentration, uh, in the left hand, right. By a more positive way. That will be a more, more towards the end of the interpretation.
Contemplation again.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:35:15] Wow. Wow.
Ayushi Roy: [00:35:40] [laugh].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:35:40] It was the system change, bro.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:35:42] System change is very… [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:35:44] Yeah. System change. [laughs]. I love it.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:35:45] It’s beautiful.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:35:48] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:35:49] Oh, man.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:35:49] And so, that’s the whole cycle?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:35:50] Yes.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:35:51] And the whole idea is that keeps repeating itself?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:35:54] Yeah, so, I got the idea to, to explore different ways, eh, that conscientization, capability could combine sometimes more and more strange ways.Is this idea of the sparking cycle to explore your own community. To start discovering your own community and to acquire the capabilities little by little that you need to aspire to the life you, you have a reason to value, right?
Ceasar McDowell: [00:36:39] Yeah. So, uh, well this has been great. Uh, but I’m, I’m curious, you’ve gone through this phase and, uh, through this project that you were working on and it’s given you a new way of looking-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:36:50] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:36:51] … at the work. Uh, so what’s next for you?
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:36:54] So, that’s a good question. I mean, eh, I need to reflect on what other ideas.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:36:59] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:36:59] [laughs].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:37:00] Other ideas as I usually know, like the two years of the planning program are very intense. So I’m looking forward to take some vacation after dating. I will stay here working for this one year in the community innovative program innovator. But in the long term, I, I’m very excited about this idea of this park. So I’m not sure how I could maybe have my own team, with colleagues that have the same feelings about it, so, that we can work with communities, eh, to spark some meaningful change with them.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:37:36] I think it’s a great idea. You know, there’s so many efforts going on right now. At least in this country I don’t know in other places. But there’s a higher interest in like using the arts.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:37:46] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:37:47] But I think as you’ve said before, that it’s not just having arts there.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:37:52] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:37:52] It’s a way of really thinking about how to make them really more effective, what they can actually ignite, and this notion of really focusing on vulnerability on a trauma and going there and then building the capacity of people as you’re doing that, I think it’s a really powerful way of thinking about how art can actually help in the restoration-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:38:15] Yeah.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:38:15] … you know, of communities.
Ayushi Roy: [00:38:16] Yeah. Is about the mindset they bring more than the art itself almost.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:38:19] Yeah.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:38:19] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:38:20] Right? And I mean, it just, this has been such an incredible experience for me ’cause you’re talking about the importance of people coming in and you know, being contemplated and being empathetic and being good listeners.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:38:32] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ayushi Roy: [00:38:32] And I feel like you’ve given us this gift of being listeners for you today. Um, not just the two of us in the room, but all of our people listening.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:38:41] Millions of people.
Ayushi Roy: [00:38:42] On air.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:38:42] You know- [crosstalk 00:38:43]. Right?
Ayushi Roy: [00:38:44] Yeah. Hopefully. Um, so thank you so much for being here and-
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:38:48] Oh, thank you, my pleasure.
Ayushi Roy: [00:38:49] … thank you for playing for us and speaking with us and sharing all of your incredible work and congratulations on your next steps.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:38:56] Thanks.
Ayushi Roy: [00:38:56] It’s really exciting.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:38:57] Also, same to you. I know you’re about to have your thesis, defense like, league rights.
Ayushi Roy: [00:39:01] Yes. Yes.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:39:01] And those sort of things.
Ayushi Roy: [00:39:03] Thank you.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:39:03] And also thank Ceasar, I mean, for the record Ceasar has been an amazing advisor, these are, has been a, an amazing advisor also for, I usually write a little persona. He recently got a very prestigious award at MIT for his-
Ayushi Roy: [00:39:16] Yes.
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:39:16] … role as an advisor. So congratulations Ceasar. Here’s the proof right?
Ceasar McDowell: [00:39:20] [laughs].
Antonio Moya-Latorre: [00:39:22] So thank you.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:39:23] Thank you all.
Ayushi Roy: [00:39:24] Thank you.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:39:25] Well that was beautiful.
Ayushi Roy: [00:39:29] Ooh, man. I feel like knots in my back released.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:39:33] Go-
Ayushi Roy: [00:39:33] You know. [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:39:33] You are just so… You know for those of you. All right. I shouldn’t say it that way. ’Cause when I say for those of you as you know, imply to somebody, you were there.
Ayushi Roy: [00:39:41] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:39:41] None of you were there with us. And we were here.
Ayushi Roy: [00:39:43] Unfortunately.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:39:44] We were in a very small piano practice room with this grand piano.
Ayushi Roy: [00:39:50] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:39:50] Two people taking video, the two of us in there and Tony. And he basically just-
Ayushi Roy: [00:40:00] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:40:00] … created the most relaxing, healing and at the same time-
Ayushi Roy: [00:40:07] Authentic.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:40:07] Authentic and intellectual space. All at the same time. And as you heard his ability to put those in music.
Ayushi Roy: [00:40:19] Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:40:20] And to use music as yet another form of communicating the intense work that he’s been doing in the communities we’ve been doing in Brazil.
Ayushi Roy: [00:40:29] Yeah. And he’s just embodies the amount of heart I think this work takes.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:40:36] Yes.
Ayushi Roy: [00:40:37] And it’s kind of, I mean, I’m so grateful that he’s our end to the season because it’s bringing to mind, you know, top of mind, the amount of both heart you need in this work and also the amount of like vulnerability you need in this work.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:40:56] Yes.
Ayushi Roy: [00:40:56] And, and you know, that doesn’t matter if you’re working from, you know, our last interview, like from someone who works at Google or if you’re working with, you know, a public radio station or within the foundation. I mean, the amount of hardest work requires, regardless of the actual brand or type of organization you’re a part of is so palpable.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:41:18] Yes.
Ayushi Roy: [00:41:19] And the work of everyone we’ve spoken to the season and particularly now with Tony and it just, it’s such a wonderful way to, to leave, I think, the season.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:41:30] Yeah.
Ayushi Roy: [00:41:31] And I’m also just realizing, I think we might have, uh, accidentally held true to where like smooth move, late night jam. [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:41:39] [laughs].
Ayushi Roy: [00:41:39] We’ve got some piano going.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:41:40] Oh, we got some piano going. Um, I don’t know what we’re gonna do the next season.
Ayushi Roy: [00:41:48] [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:41:49] Well, we’re not gonna try-
Ayushi Roy: [00:41:50] All jazz. [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:41:52] That’s so I re, you know, I wanna just say thanks to all of our guests.
Ayushi Roy: [00:41:57] Yes.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:41:58] This season has been absolutely wonderful to work with everyone and Tony. Uh, thank you so much for a really grounded-
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:08] Yes.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:08] … spiritual landing. If any, the season.
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:11] Thank you all.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:11] And thank you Ayushi.
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:13] Thank you Ceasar. [laughs].
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:14] Bye, bye.
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:16] Bye.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:18] We are production department, urban students and planning at MIT. The support from our team officer are up and running.
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:25] Our sound is produced by David Lishansky, our content by Julia Cubrera and Misael Galdamez. I’m Ayushi Roy.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:32] I am Ceasar McDowell.
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:33] And you can find us online @themove.mit.edu.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:38] And on our medium side app.
Ayushi Roy: [00:42:39] Medium.com/themove.MIT. As well as our Twitter and Facebook. Thanks so much.
Ceasar McDowell: [00:42:49] Goodbye.
