The Move Podcast S1E4: Designing for Delight (with Sabrina Dorsainvil)

In Episode 4, The Move Podcast interviews Sabrina Dorsainvil, Civic Designer and Program Manager at the Boston Mayor’s Office of New Urban Mechanics (MONUM). Not only does MONUM tackle questions of civic infrastructure and governance innovation similar to The Move, but even her job title couldn’t be more aligned.

What does a civic designer even do? Does governance innovation inherently imply digital development?

Transcript

[00:00:00] Ayushi Roy: And so even as we’re trying to think about new ideas and explore different ways of thinking about creating more housing in the city, what are those access points to have a different conversations to have a conversation, period. Right?

Ceasar: Right.

Ayushi Roy: ’Cause often in planning, it’s not about the conversation, it’s about the decision.

Ceasar: This is The Move.

Ayushi Roy: I’m Ayushi Roy.

Ceasar: I’m Ceasar McDowell. You’re listening to us.

So Ayushi, Boston has this office. An office of New Urban Mechanics.

Ayushi Roy: Are they fixing my car?

Ceasar: No they won’t that’s the whole thing about them.

Ayushi Roy: Oh, okay.

Ceasar: You take your car to them they won’t do a thing with it. They’re not like click and clack, right? But I’ll tell you what they do, do-

Ayushi Roy: I stand in line for the DMV for a really long time Ceasar don’t play with me, now.

Ceasar: Nah, I mean really. You show up you take your car to a them they won’t know what to do about it. However, if you’re actually trying to figure out how to make the public and the city engage with each other, they’re the place to go to.

Ayushi Roy: Oh, so the mechanics for the government.

Ceasar: [00:01:00] I think more than the government they’re mechanics for really, the city.

Ayushi Roy: The city?

Ceasar: Yeah, the city. The life of the city. What it means to be a part of the city. Today we have one of those mechanics with us.

Ayushi Roy: Today we have Sabrina Dorsainvil. Who is visiting us from the mayor’s office of New Urban Mechanics in the city of Boston.

Ceasar: Actually she’s not a mechanic, she has the title, Civic Designer.

Ayushi Roy: No way.

Ceasar: Yeah, how about that. So, we’re just kind of like, who else should we have on the show that’s about civic design.

Ayushi Roy: You are our top pick on Google.

Ceasar: So have you figured out what it means?

Sabrina: What would you say?

Ceasar: It’s been three years, you’ve been doing it.

Sabrina: Yeah. I mean I think it’s ever evolving but in the context of what we’ve doing it’s been I think I’ve even just started to mention It. It’s been really great to bring to the work a very specific focus on how do we communicate to different versions [00:02:00] of the public, right. How do we tell stories and how do we not just think about it as wave of digital and sort of being ushered in, or has been ushered in for a while? How do we also think about the really analog things that matter? I’m being really intentional about context, and always being the one in the room to say, “hey, who’s not here? Who should be here? Or how do we do that differently?” Or, “What didn’t work last time?” And what’s great is, this role doesn’t require me to be an expert per se but requires me to be curious and always be willing to be that oddball, or that voice in the room that’s asking a different a different set of questions. So, yeah, I think joining with New Urban Mechanics is really interesting because folks on the team don’t necessarily call themselves designers, but I think for years they’ve been ushering a version of civic design that we haven’t defined it, but it’s a really interesting way of thinking about who we want to change, shift and alter the direction our cities have been taking. To be a little bit less, a lot bit less separate and equal [00:03:00] and really thinking about, how do you make the city more delightful for folks. How do you think about things that are a little bit harder to measure, right? Like well being and welcoming ness, and prioritize things like, resilience and racial equity.

Ceasar: I love that notion; how do you make the city a little more delightful for people? That’s a really good way to think, I like that.

Ayushi Roy: Yeah.

Ceasar: I’m going to take that, okay?

Sabrina: I think it’s one of those things that the mechanics have been saying from day one, that is still relevant, right? And it’s still a question that not all cities, not very many folks in city government lead sort of lead with, or think about, or is even a factor in how public service is though of.

Ceasar: Right.

Sabrina: So, it’s an interesting framing for the work that’s trying to be done sort of in that institution.

Ayushi Roy: Yeah, we had a joke when I was working government that, no one every comes to our city website unless they need something. No ones going to go peruse a city website they way they do, I don’t know the Times or Buzzfeed or so many others, and I love that notion of yeah, how do you make this an attraction?

Sabrina: [00:04:00] Yeah.

Ayushi Roy: To people, a delight to people instead of an obligation.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Ayushi Roy: A Turbo Tax.

Sabrina: Yeah, and we see it playing out at city hall and I think even with the cities new website, right? I think I’ve even heard language being used sort of in the department of innovation technology of talking about how do we make the experience of somebody engaging with the city delightful from the digital perspective and I think we sort of work with folks in property management, and across the city to help answer the question of when you’re physically showing up to the space, right, how do you rethink the relationship folks have with city government?

Ayushi Roy: Yeah.

Sabrina: Because before I joined it was that black box of, “are they here for me? Are they against me? I don’t know.” That narrative has carried out and unintentionally or intentionally gets perpetuated and so it’s interesting to think about what physical interventions, what nudges can be made to change the nature of the conversation.

Ayushi Roy: It’s not just the service and the end of the day it is the experience of providing that service.

Sabrina: This is representative of Boston. How do you [00:05:00] start to fell welcomed even if you’re going to pay a parking ticket, right? Or get a death certificate, or a birth certificate, or get married, right?

Ceasar: Right.

Sabrina: It seems like a seemingly small thing and you’re just doing this sort of, my colleague calls it a civic chore and some things are. Somethings do feel that way, but how can you do that with a little bit more delight, right?

Ceasar: It’s really interesting because part of what you’re making me think about is, inside of city government, there is the part that’s about the service’s government provides and its interaction within the public realm of service and how do the people providing that service do it in a way that creates an experience that’s much more delightful both for themselves, and for the people of the public they are engaging with. But I wonder how has this translated to the places where the public’s in contention about what the city should be doing. What has that been like trying to work on those kinds of things? Developments a big one in Boston and there are all kinds of things. Every city can’t do [00:06:00] everything, struggles with resources, not just Boston but everywhere. Struggles with issues of identity etc. Quality of services or who gets what, there’s always a struggle because that’s what happening and that’s just the way it is.

So, how do you bring delight to the struggle?

Sabrina: Yeah, so I think all of our projects are different. I think we sort of approach the work that we do in this experiment mentality and one of the things I was brought on specifically to think about housing at first, and then sort of over the corse of the last three years sort of shifting a little broader context. When we were in housing, the question of how do you prototype and policy? How do you experiment with housing? And knowing that that’s such a hot button topic for a lot of reasons we’re all affected by it, where all really experiencing the pressure of luxury housing into the city of Boston. Rightfully so, folks have something to say and often don’t get the space to talk about it and so even as we’re trying to think about new ideas and explore different ways of thinking about [00:07:00] creating more housing in the city. What are those access points to have a different conversation? To have a conversation period, right?

Cause often in planning it’s not about the conversation it’s about the decision, yes or no, right?

Ceasar: Yes.

Sabrina: Or here or not here, right? Folks who are able to show up to those opportunities get to say yes or no, or maybe, or not here, but what happens with everyone else right. So, I think one of the projects our dean really tried to launch with this mindset of how do you bring the conversation outside of the typical spaces that is and to be a little more thoughtful with how we engage was our yoo-hoo for urban housing unit. So, how do you talk about smaller living in the city of Boston. We can sit back here and look at the data and say, “yeah, we have a large number of small households right. Like one to two person households” but you go to certain neighborhoods and that’s not what the living experience feels like. So, it doesn’t matter that you can tell me those numbers, I actually want to understand how whatever your idea is work for me, and works for my neighbors and works for [00:08:00] my circle as I define it. So, we said, “okay if we’re to say smaller living, they’re going to Seaport. They’re going to think this is for working professionals a.k.a millennials, right.”

Or a very specific version of the population that’s not them and we said, “okay if we believe that, that doesn’t have to be the only person, right.” And that we could find a way to make this affordable how do we have that conversation about what is needed to make it something that’s useful and if it’s not then, good. We can share that information so we had a 385-square foot unit that we took around to at least six different neighborhoods and really tried to focus on getting outside of the downtown core for the reason of who doesn’t get to be apart of this conversation and again it was about hearing, yes, no, maybe so, or my cousin, not my cousin, right.

Ceasar: Right.

Sabrina: Who is anyone is this useful for and what is needed in order to make it happen? Seeing our role as being able to bring together the different pieces of the [00:09:00] conversation to make that need to happen to try new things. So, that was our attempt and trying at saying, “hey, it’s usually unpleasant to have these conversations about what might happen, right. How do we create an opportunity to have that in a way that’s more open and this opportunity for discourse which just doesn’t.”

Ceasar: You said a lot in that and there are two things that you skipped over that are really important to highlight. One is you actually built something.

Ayushi Roy: Right.

Ceasar: And took it around to different neighborhoods, right. That’s a feat, and deciding okay we are actually going to prototype this thing, we’re going to build it, we’re going to show it, so that’s one part. The other part I think is also just as important is that the notion that you built is because it’s hard for people to have a conversation about stuff when they can’t experience something. So, giving them the experience let them see and then it shifts the conversation, right?

Sabrina: Yeah.

Ceasar: That’s really cool.

Sabrina: Yeah, and I when I reflect on it. We didn’t just jump straight in to creating a unit, right?

Ceasar: Right.

Sabrina: None of this would have been [00:10:00] possible without partners, right. With folks at BSA and others trying to figure out this question and coming together. I think none of the work that we do is done in isolation. I think collaboration is incredibly important and we started off with just taping off the ground. We started with the conversations and we have to show you not just tell you. So, we taped off the ground and had folks walk through and we had folks in Rocksbury and JP say, “oh, okay, all right okay, I’m with you now. I can be apart of the conversation.” I think it was important for us to see that happen, see that shift to say it actually is really vague, not everyone thinks in terms of square feet. I think most of us in our every day life don’t and so being really thoughtful about the way in which you are presenting things and it’s not that it makes one group smarter or not, it’s that language is not unified, right? So, how do we bring it to a space that helps us easily communicate what we’re thinking and be able to have thoughtful responses back [00:11:00] because the engagement is always still one sided, right. So, going from taping the ground up to actually having conversations about it, to actually having a unit that we can say, “ all right, let’s walk through it, and talk about it. Is this stove too small?” Right.

Ceasar: Right.

Sabrina: Maybe it is. “Do you need a porch in order for this to feel a little bit more open. Is this bathroom perfect for you? Cool.” Being able to have those candid conversations with folks, the physical building of it was incredibly important for every project it looks different with that sort of bringing it to life. Which is why I think earlier I mentioned, sometimes it’s really important to think context wise. Maybe it’s this analog painting or something, or maybe it is a digital experience we want to prototype, but it’s very much driven by what is the question we are trying to answer or better understand. Who? Multiple people, right? I think for this instance, it was not just residents but we also had to be able to talk to developers, so that looked different. That conversation looked different and we needed to talk in terms of policy, and so that also looked a little bit [00:12:00] different and so, we are constantly trying to be thoughtful about who the audience is.

Ceasar: So one of things I find interesting about the office that you’re in and the work that you do is really pushing the notion of what government should be doing. Which is responsibility for really the craft of engaging and working with the public, but they’re not the only players that have that responsibility. So, have you noticed spilled over effects? Like other organizations other, other companies saying, “oh look at what they’re doing over there. We need to start thinking about this a little bit differently.” Or are you just out there and people are going like, “ well let ’em go.”

Sabrina: I think we definitely not the only one. I think we lead with our work feels quite unique in regards to city government, but we do share space with folks in Boston even that have been doing this type of work just from a different perspective and different lens, a different angle and often those are our partners too.

Ceasar: Yeah.

Sabrina: And we’re constantly engaging with folks across the nation and as far as London and even [00:13:00] further to like Australia about what is it what we can do to rethink government as it exists in these different spaces, and questioning what does democracy really look like? And as we were trying to think about how diverse our cities have continued to become we can’t repeat the mistakes we’ve made in the past right?

Ceasar: Right.

Sabrina: And so who gets to be apart of the ushering the future and yeah I think we definitely do share the space with folks, but yeah, its been really interesting even for me to see partners that I’ve been working with over the course of six months or year. Whether its picking up the language or pushing us to continue to do things the way that sort of have started doing, it’s been really great to see shifts in the way that people have approached their work and have approached working with us. Yeah, I think we get asked sometimes just to sit in the room and again like ask a different set of questions because sometimes we are able to deep dive with folks and sometimes it’s a new partnership. Often times it’s folks [00:14:00] who have seen like, “oh, okay last time we tried to do this particular context and that worked really well.” We’re never here to swoop in and save the day, but we do sort of pride ourselves on poking and nudging and asking and really again that curiosity of what can we do different? How can government be different? How can we do government differently.

Ayushi Roy: What are some of the main values or principles that you like to hold dear and this could be you or it could be your team, when you try to be curious? When you try to forget what questions to ask? You gave the example earlier, “oh, wait and we thought about the people that aren’t in the room” So, what are some of those principles that are driving you?

Sabrina: Yeah, for me for sure, but I think across our team, especially as the mayor election, Tia Martin as our first sort of chief resilience officer with the city. She had been doing a lot of work with her team to figure out, how do we create this baseline for the city that centered around resilience and racial equity? And thinking thoughtfully about what [00:15:00] are city has looked like and what it needs to look like. I think that we have prided ourselves to make sure that our work is speaking to that, speaking that language and if it hadn’t been before, how do we make sure it is now? Everything that we are doing now how do we be deliberate? I think that, that care, I think it was always there, I think the framing of delight really argues that, that might be it, but really being thoughtful of who we are focusing on. That’s interesting because government, right, you’re supposed to be focused on everyone and we get that. We are designing for all of course, but we know that you have to make decisions and by really framing the work the value set around something like resilience and racial equity means that you’re starting point is going to be the folks who sort of follow the margins. Something that I often use to describe the work. I think we personally, like I said I started with housing work and now we’re doing this bucket of work called third spaces and it’s really just thinking outside of home and work, and what are those spaces that really allow people to feel like they’re healthy, [00:16:00] thriving, innovating in the city of Boston. That’s what we say, that’s what the mayor pushes as what the city should be, right. We believe that in order to get that, everyone needs to have access to a welcoming space. They need to have access to a space the helps them feel connected to people or resources, and a space that allows them to be creative. That creative piece is really thinking about agency, having the ability to shift and shape and alter a space. So, when we’re embarking on work like that we pause and actually just naturally the work focuses on seniors. Older adults, it focuses on young people aren’t voters and aren’t tax payers but are incredibly important to future of the city. It means that we are focusing on folk’s in the recovery community, we are focusing on folks who happen to be houseless. What is welcoming space look like for them? We’re thinking about our immigrant communities, or people of color in the city of Boston and how do we make sure that they also have access to spaces like this. So, I think a lot of the ways the mechanics have led with thinking about, let’s not lead with [00:17:00] technology, but let’s think about how technology builds trust. Let’s think about the light, right. Let’s think about what people what, and need and not just doing things for things’ sake and that I think this extra key portion of thinking about resilience, equity and folks who fall onto the margins that has been incredibly important for guiding the way that the work has been unfolding for that few years. It’s a really interesting growth I’m seeing having heard the history of the team an also being a part of making that.

Ceasar: I know.

Sabrina: You know I had another thing to say, but I was like, “girl you keep going so long.”

Ceasar: That’s all right, you can go as long as you want.

Ayushi Roy: No, keep going.

Sabrina: No, just recently every time I talk about the work, you just reflect a little bit.

Ceasar: Yeah.

Sabrina: And just watching how, you know I started from a team of two, right. Really diving into projects that sometimes landed in the thread of technology space and so I think saying it explicitly like no, technology is not for technology’s sake. Right now a lot of our team is focused on [00:18:00] really trying to push this sort of mart city narrative to not just be about the nice new gadget, but really be able, why don’t we create a more human city, right? How do we actually think about really challenges that folks are facing and how technology, whether analog or digital, can actually support that and push that. So, of course we are doing work in regards to antonymous vehicles and we’re not ignoring that. I think it’s really about how we think holistically about future of the city but yeah just seeing over the years how whether it’s the size of the team or the ways in which we have been able to expand the work. These are the first times we are putting something out there from us and not just with a partner. That’s still incredibly important, I think there are partners involved and saying that, “hey, we have been asking questions about smart cities and how we can actually be more human. So, we’re going to put out an RFB and see what can we do about it.” Or, “we have been asking all these questions with our partners, we’re going to put those questions out and invite the city of Boston who’s rich with resources in terms [00:19:00] of academia, but also like community organizations and everyday people who are trying to change the city for the better.” How do we put it out there what we’re doing and doing what we want to do. So, just seeing how it’s grown from not necessarily reactive but very much intentional and continue to grow in that sort of intentional mindset, which is really phenomenal.

Ceasar: So, for you, right. Just for you personally, no, part of what we’re really interested in, apart of what we want to connect around this is that, it’s people doing this work and people have a lot that they have to work through work thorough. There’s disappointments, there’s joys, there’s success, there’s failures, there’s everything in between, and there’s delight. A couple things, like one give me an experience you’ve had so far not only just inside of Boston but with others you’ve talked to, as you said around the world and everything seeing what other people are doing. What do you see as the challenge that most people, are most common [00:20:00] that folks are facing as they try to expand actually the way the public is engaged with the city. Is there anything, like one or two things that everybody’s really struggling with? Or working toward? You know really working and it’s just.

Sabrina: So from my perspective from the beginning just the question of community engagement has been really interesting. That idea of what does that actually? Why do we do that? When do we do it? And I think I’ve over simplified in my head as something to deal with is, often we have residents who are yelling on the top of their lungs like, “you’re not listening to me” and that’s sort of the starting point of every conversation from that end. Then from the inside out city government speaking, it feels like the conversations a non-start. They’re not gonna listen they’re just going to yell, so we’re just going to ask a specific question. I’m watching and seeing as folks are trying to overcome that challenge which a really historical perspective of the way that cities and government [00:21:00] worked with residents, I say work with and I’m kind of sorta doing air quotes because that’s often not the case. That’s not always a conversation. There’s timelines and deadlines and all these things that are sort of the case for why we don’t do things differently and it’s incredibly important to try and figure out how we do it differently. What are the ways in which we can embed that conversation early on in the process to make it natural. To make it a reflex because I think so often the reflex is not that. The reflex in a lot of different scenarios, I think not just city government but I think in the equity context. The reflex is not that, right. I go to what I know, I go to who I know and who I know is not diverse or different, or doesn’t acknowledge or open the opportunity for difference or discourse, that’s just where I’ll be, right?

Ceasar: Yeah.

Sabrina: So, folks are trying and I’m watching them try and it’s really exciting to see that push and so the more and more we can think about what it actually means to create the table, [00:22:00] to find a seat at the table, to make a seat and put it at the table, or whatever version (crosstalk 00:22:07) I often end up in a lot of conversations about diversity and design and on one part I’m sort of disgruntled, but at the same time I know these need to happen and I’m happy to be the person and be one of many of us who are trying to figure out, what does it mean? How do we one unpack diversity, and two how do we actually think about how do you get there? It’s been really, I think exciting to continue to be apart of that, and really be able to amplify the voices that are trying to do that work as well as trying to do that myself. In regards to the community engagement piece, there’s also the parallel, what does civic engagement mean? How do we think about democracy beyond voting? I think those are really hard questions that folks are tying to figure out because even as an elected official, there needs to be space to continue to have a contact point with folks that you are making decisions on behalf of. [00:23:00] Putting your trust in someones doesn’t mean that you have no say, or no ability to communicate where things have changed because we do not all stay the same.

Ceasar: We don’t stay the same, right.

Sabrina: I like chuckle at persona exercises and sometimes every time someones like, “all right let’s do that” I’m like, “but also remember that humans we change.”

Ceasar: We change all the time.

Sabrina: Even if a little bit, yeah exactly, and so just all the words that we continue to use and that are obviously tied to processes, whether it be civic engagement or public engagement, community engagement, it’s really just pausing and asking yourselves, what has that meant?

Ceasar: Yeah.

Sabrina: What should it mean? And really trying to figure out what it can look like in the future starting small.

Ceasar: We were interviewing one person who part of this series and since you brought up the thing about people coming to meetings sometimes they’re screaming and hollering and he said as a planner himself he said, “you know” and this is because we were talking about this whole thinking about designing for healing and he says, [00:24:00] “maybe we should be a lot more intentional about creating those spaces where people should be able to come in and scream and holler because that’s a real thing for them and that’s a real emotion. If we can’t create the space for it and take it on then we can’t possibly move forward.” Which I think is a really interesting thing to do instead of saying how do we get around but how do we embrace it.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Ceasar: Just really realizing there’s a lot of grief, there’s a lot of healing that needs to be done.

Sabrina: Yup

Ceasar: On all sides, and how do we create the context that allow people to come. However they need to come into that so that they can move forward.

Sabrina: Yeah and this is a question of what we’ve all inherited, right? I would say a lot of us have inherited a lot of trauma, right?

Ceasar: Yup.

Sabrina: To your point that needs healing. We’ve also inherited these biases and perspective and I think the question of how do we do government differently? How do we rethink civic engagement? All these questions, I think come from a point of saying, “wherever we [00:25:00] were if we acknowledge that some of that is not what we need right now, how do we deal with it?” So in some cases it’s really yeah, how do we actually have a conversation? What does that actually look like? How do I actually create the space for you to heal? I think the social emergency response centers are a really interesting model of design studio for social intervention to saying, “actually we might want to talk about the real the thing, but we want to be in a space where we fell like if I have to let it out I can let out and they’re are people around me that respect and get that, that is real. That my trauma is real. That social issue is not invisible to everyone” right?

Ceasar: Right.

Sabrina: So, I think that is just one example of how that really happens in a lot of different areas. The way that we, I even said, I was apart of city government. I had a vision of city government that was perpetuated by the people around me. In some places that’s true but the city of Boston is aiming to not be that. We all have to pause and figure out what are the ways in which we show that we’re different, as well as creating the space for that difference to start to [00:26:00] unfold.

Ceasar: Yeah.

Sabrina: Naturally, right.

Ceasar: What always comes up for me in thinking about this is, we’ve done a really good job, I think in this country, or maybe not even a good job, we’ve just done a job of really outlining what the role of government is and we be supporting the institutions of government. Well we’ve actually haven’t done the work that needs to be done about supporting the institution of the public. Right? There actually is nothing in our society that does that. We’ve grown up in a way that, I mean grown up as a nation that has really saw the public as all these kind of separate groups that need to vie for something. If we were to step back now and say, “well actually no, we can see there’s something different. We actually don’t have anything that exists that can bring birth that new public. That new way for a public to be in a relationship with each other.” So, I don’t know how we get there. Sometimes I [00:27:00] think well that’s not governments responsibility, its a different responsibility because government should be there in service to the public. So how does the public actually create its own mechanisms for knowing what it needs to know, to work with government. I have answers for that. I think it’s the challenge that we’re facing as we move into this new world.

Sabrina: Yeah. I think with all of the questions I have perhaps posed already and ones that have come up even within the past year with the org, is like should the city be a healer? What does that mean? And having folks at EMS be like, “oh, I think we are.” And having other folks in different departments who are like, “I don’t get, right.” So it’s real, the question of what do we need? What do want? And how do we come to some sort of agreement of what we can do in order to actually, again I keep saying, like usher in. But really craft and shape the future of Boston that is farmer equitable, and really does take a note from past practices, past investments, past [00:28:00] policies, and actually says like, “we get it and we may not know ourselves but how do we invite the opportunity to change that?” You might be right, I don’t think either of us have the answers. It might be partly the role of city government but it also might not be at all. I think even in our work we’re often like, “actually do we need to step out of the way. Is that actually the project at hand, is figuring out how to step out of the way.” So, we have a lot of experiments that are in the realm of trying to do that just say, “okay let’s just create the space.”

Ceasar: Yeah.

Sabrina: Then step away and figure out when are we needed, and how do we be in service to the public with the public though and knowing that the public is not a monolith. There are so many versions of the public and I think going back to how do you prioritize by looking at the past and really questioning what do we want to be? We start to get those answers naturally.

Ceasar: And we’re getting close to the end. One thing I want [00:29:00] to say though is that you didn’t necessarily sign up for but I just want to appreciate and say it, which I think is just wonderful, is that you started about by saying hey, your title is civic designer, and we see our cities changing all the time. We’re here at MIT in department Urban Cities and Planing always trying to recruit folks in and trying to figure out how do we get more people of color involved in it and I think people saying, “you know actually, the design is the civic space is a design problem. It’s something that we should be doing.” But you’re a model, of what planners can become and a way that can actually I think helps us attract other people to the field by saying, “it’s not all about people in drawing plans but also about creating really new opportunities.”

Sabrina: Yeah.

Ayushi Roy: Yeah.

Sabrina: And it’s interesting when folks as me my journey into this because some might look and say, “so urban planning, you studied urban planning” and I’m like, “oh, no not quite, architect, no not really.” I studied industrial design and I got from that experience understanding how [00:30:00] important it is to listen to people, to think thoughtfully about the everyday experiences if you’re going to design for them. That attempt of being as thoughtful, as thoughtful as you can be and really questioning my role as a designer? Am I a facilitator? Am I creating something? What does it mean? Then going on to study a vague degree, but remarkable experience a master of science and design in urban ecology. People hear that and say, “are you an urban ecologist?” And I’m like, “no” So they’re like, “so like an urban planner?” “Again, no, I don’t think so.” But there’s just so much that this space, this space of civic design that needs to welcome in.

Ceasar: Yes.

Sabrina: I think the perfect context to say, “it’s not about whatever silo you got used to thinking you can operate in, how can me with the lens of an illustrator be apart of the conversation about the shaping of the city?” How can me as a graphic designer be apart of that? How can me as a sociologist? How can me as a doctor? How can me as, whatever that might be. If our team as any example [00:31:00] of what that looks like to try and build that acknowledgment that it’s not just going to be one field, or one practice. We have game designers, and former biology teachers and folks come from all different walks of life that we’re creating together and welcoming in others from again all these different practices to do the same. My own sort of pet desire from the beginning, I remember my interview, I was like, “we need to get more industrial design students to see that this is I don’t it’s just about industrial design students but I think it’s about really having a conversation about civic life, civic design perhaps but really how do our art and design influence, shape, support be apart of the city in a way that I don’t think we explicatory talk about now. We’re waiting and we’re excited and so it’s good that y’all are a part of that too right.

Ceasar: Yeah. Well Sabrina thank you so much.

Ayushi Roy: Thank you.

Sabrina: Thank you so much for having me.

Ceasar: Its been great. Sabrina brought some materials for us to (crosstalk 00:32:00) and we’ll [00:32:00] have them up on the website for folks to look at.

Sabrina: Yes.

Ceasar: That is the first publications from-

Sabrina: So, yeah, we finally put out a year in review. If anyone ever wants to talk about the work we are an open door and so folks can feel free to emails us and we do our best to meet with anybody but we thought it would great to share what we had been doing for the last year. In terms of buckets of work that we have been embarking in and the other document that I brought to share was our civic research agendas. So, it’s our attempt at putting out there the questions that we’re asking ourselves in our collaborations with our partners, different city departments and really where we hope to continue to partner with folks in the city and beyond.

Ceasar: Great. Well thank you and we will have those up for people to-

Ayushi Roy: To check out online.

Ceasar: To check out online.

Ayushi Roy: Yeah.

Ceasar: Thank you so much.

Ayushi Roy: Thank you.

Sabrina: Thank you.

Ayushi Roy: You know one of the great things about speaking with Sabrina today was the way in which a lot of the work of the New [00:33:00] Urban Mechanics dives into the design principle we’ve been working on around digital and analog Ye Ceasar: ah, it really is and it’s great. Their whole notion that they are a place of and they name their mechanics and they’re thinking about technology and they’re thinking about those kinds of infrastructure issues and at the same time they’re really concerned that people actually are attracted by delight.

Ayushi Roy: You know what was incredible was her and her office are working to build services for people across the identities of Boston and I think a lot of what we and I forget is that just the very nature of my speech, whether it be online, whether it be on Twitter, whether it be in person, whether I’m sitting or standing actually impacts the person I am speaking to and how they receive my speech. A lot of what the mechanics is doing is really trying to understand how to speak beyond the traditional means of what speech looks like. For government it’s a lot of jargon, it’s a lot of legalese, [00:34:00] it’s a lot of online and more and more as we’ve gathered statistics there is a digital divide and that a lot of older folks or lower income folks don’t have the access to these online digital services and PDF’s and other applications that are an important part of the process of living in a city as complex as Boston.

Ceasar: An d I want to be careful because I always have this problem with the digital divide one because it is true, but even if there wasn’t a digital divide, this issue between (inaudible 00:34:34) would still exist.

Ayushi Roy: Oh completely, right.

Ceasar: Because of who are as human beings, it’s not about solving their problem-

Ayushi Roy: It’s like a new chapter of an existing problem.

Ceasar: It’s a new chapter of an existing problem, right, exactly.

Ayushi Roy: Right.

Ceasar: It just pays into this much deeper problem. One of the things that I really appreciate about the way they do this is, here they are the office of New Urban Mechanics and they’re searching for delight and this really is I think a way of talking [00:35:00] about this need for both analog and digital spaces. The analog is the mechanical part of it and the delight is the human piece of it and we need that because people our voices and the way we speak and the way we hear and listen exist in both worlds. This has been The Move and you can catch us at themove.mit.edu I’m Ceasar McDowell.

Ayushi Roy: I’ m Ayushi Roy, thanks for listening.

Originally published at https://themove.mit.edu on September 18, 2018.