Video Transcript
Journalist/Producer: Lilit Sarents Aleksanian
Interviewer: Hamlet Arakelyan
Video/Editing: Lily Arakelyan
credits to #ԶինուժMEDIA for the archive videos
0:06 I think that this conflict is essentially different for both Armenians and Azerbaijan, and there are multiple reasons for that. First of all, since the moment (of) the previous Nagorno-Karabagh conflict ended in the 90s, Armenians took the control of the territory they wanted and secured the safety of the people living there. And Azerbaijan is the one who lost the war that time. So, as you see, as I wrote in my post before, these two nationalisms, on Armenian side and on Azeri side, are completely different. Because here, on the Armenian side, it’s built entirely on the idea of defense. However, within Azerbaijan, it’s built entirely on the idea of conquer. And I think that one of the reasons why I never really heard the hate speech here in education during my year as a teacher, is that there is no need in Armenia, for such speech. And Armenia has never been hostile to Azerbaijan in a very direct way. We see this on the other side quite frequently.
1:15 Another difference here is that Azerbaijan currently has very strong allies. And I think that one of the reasons why we had to wait for 30 years for this to happen is that it needed also time to form strong alliances. Armenia, currently, I have this feeling, unfortunately, is fighting this war alone. And I don’t see any adequate response from the international opinion, so far.
1:44 Usually, in Europe, when we hear about two countries fighting over territory, we imagine this territory as inhabited equally by the 2 populations and then there’s a contest (conflict) here. However, we really have to take into consideration that this is the (an) area completely inhabited by Armenians. So when I hear this notion of liberation of Nagorno-Karabagh by Azerbaijan, I think the question I would ask as an anthropologist, is that what exactly, or who exactly, you wish to liberate in this context, because there are no Azeri people there. There is no one to defend there. Contrary to Armenia who has 150 000 people there, who live there, and who demand and who deserve to be protected. There is always some amount of people on both sides who is going to be against the war.
2:40 We have to really start reframing it that we are talking about Azerbaijan and Turkey on that other side. Is that probably everyone who has been presenting anti-war or pro-Armenian rhetoric in this country is currently either dead or in jail or living outside of the country. So we don’t really hear many of these voices there, simply because it’s completely unsafe to vocal this kind of opinions there. And you know, if we compare the Freedom of Press Index in Armenia and in Azerbaijan, it’s obviously completely different. This country does not have free press any longer. And I think that international opinion must also fully acknowledge that.
3:23 I’m very far from framing this narrative as a Christianity and Islam opposition, because I believe that there is nothing in Christianity itself and Islam itself that would make this mutually exclusive. It’s about how the Islam or Christianity is used on the foundation of the nationalist narrative. And I think that… I saw sometimes on social media how many people frame it as the clash of civilizations, understood as the Christianity versus Islam and I understand why this rhetoric is convenient sometimes. However, it is, in a way, the clash of civilizations, but not between Christianity and Islam, but between two different visions of the world, and two different visions of politics. Having Azerbaijan and Turkey, as, and I have to say it out loud, fascist states, who are trying to use Islam as a tool, and who are trying to, basically crave the rest of the world accordingly to (their) own image. And I think that we have to seriously worry about it. And I worry about this as a European, and I worry about this as, basically, a citizen of any country. And I think that this is something that everyone should be concerned with.
We have seen before, Hagia Sofia being changed to a mosque, we have seen academics — almost 6000 academics! — being fired in Turkey, and 700, from the Coup in 2016 being (sent to) jail! We see the recent tension between Turkey and Greece… So I think this is something that everyone should be concerned (about), now taking into account that Greece is part of the European Union, and this is something we should all be worried about.
5:20 The Aliyev family, for 30 years, sustained the power mainly — not only — but also thanks to the anti-Armenian rhetoric that has been basically pumped in the society for 30 years. So they raised and an entire generation of Azerbaijani people who do not know war, who’ve been born after the war. And the only thing that they know about that war is what they have been told by the Azerbaijani government. So this narrative that has been so strongly imposed in Azerbaijani is now striking back. Because this generation of Azeri people actually demands war now. And Aliyev’s family has to put everything at stake at this moment to claim military victory, because military victory is what is demanded from it.
6:12 First, the safety has to be secured. And the safety of the Armenian people and the people of Nagorno-Karabakh has been proven not to be the priority of the international community for the past modern 100 years.
Because unfortunately the international community does fail Armenia because of the geopolitical significance of Armenian at this point. Unfortunately we live in the world where the monetary interest in the one that prevails on the level of international treaties and international policies. So as Armenia does not have any valued resources that could be offered to the rest of the world as leverage, it has to stand alone.
7:00 It’s very interesting now to observe how the international position of Azerbaijan is going to be affected internationally and we have multiple evidence at this moment of violating various rules of international law and how do you actually conduct war. We have UN convention against recruiting, training, and the use of mercenaries that has been violated. We already have the evidence of Azerbaijan basically targeting civilian population.
7:33 The problem we face of the contemporary world is that is claims to be built up of a certain set of values though those values are not implemented. So having observed what happened in Syria before, what happened with many conflicts that we face on the international level or the 50 years of 100 years, is what worries me a lot is that the value that the West declares are not fully implemented with integrity at the level of international politics.
And Azerbaijan has big leverage here as one of the oil suppliers to Europe, with a lot of companies, big companies being involved, including Exxon, including British Petroleum, so I guess we have to see which values will stand and we have to see, is the world ruled currently by the monetary interest only, or there is something more here.
8:37 I think what should be priority now is to stop the aggression. And later we can talk about how to settle the situation adequately. I think that the peace if very difficult in the region. Especially that the history is in a way brutal, the history is in a way, the both sides somehow had losses in it. So, I believe the peace at this moment especially is a very difficult thing to talk about, and I suppose that the current rhetoric should be focused on Azerbaijan stopping the aggression, and after that we can talk about how to successfully implement the peace processes. And the fact that Azerbaijan is not satisfied, obviously, with no progress with the OSCE Minsk Group and the peace process, definitely does not justify the aggression.
9:51 Everything we read about the war, fictional and non-fictional, basically says that as soon as you go to the front line, your understanding of what is might change. And I think we have a tendency in many countries to romanticize war, not really thinking about the fact, I believe, that the experience of the war from a regular soldier- and I don’t want to claim their experiences- but this is just how I imagine it, is that the war is dirty and that the war if full of suffering on both sides, that we should to some extent be empathetic towards.
I believe on the other hand, that the soldiers on the front line, what is being at stake for them now is the safety and the existence of the country, of their families, and of people they care about. And, as again, just to repeat, Azerbaijan does not really defend. Because we really have to understand the difference between defending and being the aggressor. So Azerbaijan has, at this point, no one to defend, except maybe the ego of the Aliyev family.
11:15 I see now some commentaries under my post that are coming from Turkish and Azeri citizens, and accusing me, to some extent, that Armenians paid me, that I’m brainwashed by the Armenians, and I would like to also address that to some extent. Because I’ve been living in this country for many years, and as a researcher specialized in Armenian issues, I am critical towards the Armenian culture to a big extent, and I am critical towards certain aspects of the Armenian government as well. But still, I was given the right to happily live here and continue my work for many years, and I am not really sure if I was given the same amount of academic freedom if I was living in Azerbaijan or if I was living in Turkey. So, I think we can come back to being this cold-hearted academic discussion and academic analysis as soon as the aggression is being stopped, then we can talk.
