Author Tom Murray, PhD on Five Keys to A Happy & Lasting Marriage

An Interview With Nancy Landrum

…Prioritize Playfulness. Playfulness keeps the relationship interesting and dynamic. Couples should have spontaneous, fun activities that break the routine of daily life. Jane and Mike, for example, found their relationship routine and predictable. They added some playful activities like surprise date nights and silly games to rekindle their spark and bring them closer together…

Marriage is a lifelong journey that requires dedication, understanding, and continuous growth from both partners. To delve deeper into what makes a marriage truly happy and enduring, we are seeking to feature authors who have explored this topic through their writing. As a part of this series, I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Tom Murray.

Dr. Tom Murray, author, international trainer, educator, and couples and sex therapist-supervisor, is a widely sought-after expert in sexuality and intimate relationships. For more than two decades, Murray has worked with everyday folks to embrace their weirdness, shed labels and shame, lean into anxiety, and build better and stronger relationships. Murray has appeared in numerous venues, including Buzzfeed and Medium, as well as radio, television, and numerous podcasts. Murray directs A Path to Wellness. He authored Making Nice with Naughty: An intimacy guide for the rule-following, organized, perfectionist, practical, and color-within-the-line types.

Thank you so much for doing this with us! Many of our most powerful lessons come from personal experience. What experiences inspired you to write a book of relationship advice?

My greatest inspiration is my clients. They are the heroes facing enormous challenges that test their emotional, psychological, and relational capacities. In my twenty years as a marriage counselor and sex therapist, I’ve consistently been struck by the human spirit’s resilience in seeking out more profound, much more meaningful relationships. Our meaning comes from relationships. Without one, we feel empty, like a thing is lacking. In a healthy relationship, we feel included, safe, and secure.

But some people demand safety and security; they create rules about how the world “should” be, “must” be, and “has to” be to avoid the world’s inherent uncertainty. But true intimacy and eroticism live in the shadows, in the mysterious, in the unknowable. This realization led me to write Making Nice with Naughty: An intimacy guide for the rule-following, organized, perfectionist, practical, and color-with-the-lines types.

In my career, I’ve seen how too much self-control and predictability can hinder real connection. Many of my clients have trouble letting go of the desire for structure — often due to a fear of vulnerability. In my book, I help readers loosen their grip on these expectations. I encourage them to embrace the spontaneous, playful, and sometimes chaotic side of intimacy. By doing this, they might connect with their significant other and discover more joy and freedom within their relationships.

Making Nice with Naughty is more than a guide — it’s a journey toward embracing all of us. It is about combining stability with spontaneity and security with adventure. I hope to demonstrate to readers that being intimate necessitates stepping into the unknown, being vulnerable, and giving up the fear of imperfection. If our significant other can see and accept us, we lay a foundation for a happy and long-term marriage.

From experience, I think the secret of a fulfilling relationship is this dance between the predictable and the unpredictable. My book has practical advice, real-life examples, and exercises to help individuals and couples escape perfectionism. It’s about learning to love imperfection and enjoying the unanticipated things in life and love.

In essence, Making Nice with Naughty celebrates the human spirit’s ability to love deeply and fully. It is a testament to the concept that releasing our fears and being ourselves opens the door to a more satisfying relationship. I hope readers will dare to step into new territory in their relationships — and find meaning along the way.

In your opinion, what are the core principles that underpin a thriving marriage? Can you share a couple of examples from your book that illustrate these principles in action?

People often misunderstand what it means to truly love someone. Many tend to love with an agenda, thinking, “I want you to be as I want you to be.”

True love, however, means loving someone with acceptance, saying, “I want you to be as YOU want you to be.” This kind of love takes immense courage. Why? Because loving someone as they wish to be means allowing them the freedom to express their autonomy, which can be anxiety-inducing for those who crave certainty in their lives. Interestingly, the word ‘courage’ comes from the Latin ‘cor,’ meaning heart. It takes a lot of heart to love someone authentically, allowing them to be their true selves. Yet, the payoff is immense — an authentic, deeply connected relationship.

One key principle of a thriving marriage is letting go of the belief that high expectations are beneficial. Expecting others to live up to your high standards often indicates low resilience. When you insist on others meeting your expectations, it’s often because you’re trying to avoid the uncomfortable feelings you anticipate experiencing if they don’t. Instead of forcing others to comply, focus on developing greater resilience in yourself. This shift allows for a more flexible and compassionate approach to relationships.

Playfulness and creativity are also essential for a thriving marriage. Couples should seek opportunities to play together, show up in new and surprising ways, and embrace the unpredictable. For example, don’t be surprised if sex becomes boring if it always happens in the same place and follows the same sequence. Variety and spontaneity keep the spark alive. Try having intimate moments in different settings and explore new activities together to keep your relationship dynamic and exciting.

Additionally, resist the temptation to believe that all problems can be solved with better communication skills alone. Many clients come to therapy wanting to improve their communication, and therapists often focus on this area. However, it’s far more important to address the internal dialogue you have with yourself. Pay attention to your mind chatter: How do you speak to yourself about yourself? How do you speak to yourself about your partner? The stories we tell ourselves must be addressed and cleaned up to improve our interpersonal communication truly.

For instance, in my book, I highlight the story of a couple who struggled with rigid expectations. They constantly clashed because each partner had a fixed idea of how the other should behave. Through therapy, they learned to let go of these expectations and instead embraced each other’s individuality. This shift transformed their relationship, allowing them to connect on a deeper level.

Another example is a couple who revitalized their marriage by embracing playfulness. They broke out of their routine and started planning spontaneous dates and surprise activities for each other. This not only rekindled their romance but also strengthened their bond as they navigated new experiences together.

By fostering acceptance, resilience, creativity, and a healthy internal dialogue, couples can build a foundation for a thriving, lasting marriage.

How do you address the topic of conflict resolution in your writing? What strategies do you believe are most effective for couples to navigate disagreements and maintain harmony?

Interpersonal conflict often stems from a resistance to accepting reality as it is — which is why many people lead with having high expectations. This resistance may be characterized by a reluctance to acknowledge differences in person’s perspectives, needs, or emotions. When we fight with reality, we deny the situation and try to force our expectations or desires on it, leading to frustration and conflict. This more contemplative approach can lead to mindfulness and acceptance; thus, conflict can be more compassionately navigated. This shift in perspective turns adversarial interactions into opportunities for growth and connection.

I integrate Terry Real’s concept of Core Negative Images (CNI) in my therapy. If you’ve been with someone long enough, you’ll probably develop a CNI of them. The CNI is an ingrained (often unconscious) negative impression one partner has of the other, usually in response to unresolved emotional wounds or past experiences. When triggered, these negative images distort reality and amplify misunderstandings, triggering defensive reactions and increased conflict. I help my clients recognize and address CNIs in the relationship to move beyond these distortions and build a more authentic and compassionate relationship. In this way, couples can limit conflicts and increase emotional intimacy and resilience.

Another important point is how attack and defensiveness are framed. So often one partner accuses the other of being defensive without considering how their own approach might be triggering that defensiveness. Dan Wile, a famed marriage therapist, describes these five levels or focuses of attacks.

1. Attacking Behavior: This happens when one partner criticizes another for doing something (e.g., “I don’t like you put dishes in the sink instead of in the dishwasher where they belong!”).
2. Attacking Emotions: This happens when one partner criticizes the other (“Why are so angry about this?”) while implying that the other person’s feelings are wrong, irrational, etc.
3. Attacking Character: This includes name-calling or implying something is wrong with the other person’s character.
4. Accusatory Interpretations: This level usually includes implying reasons or motives for the partner’s behavior, usually attributing it to unconscious phenomena (e.g., “You’re annoyed with me because your boss gave you a hard time today,” or “You’re treating me like your mother addressed you.”).
5. Criticizing intentions: This occurs when one partner assumes and attacks the motivations or intentions of the other (e.g. “You just want to make my life miserable, or “If you really loved me… “suggesting the partner does not love them.).

To counter these destructive patterns, I suggest couples use the acronym T.H.I.N.K. They could ask themselves prior to speaking if what they are about to say is True, Inspiring, Honest, Necessary, and Kind. Such a considerate approach to communication would solve most problems.

In addition, research by John and Julie Gottman indicates that two-thirds of couples’ problems remain ongoing and will never be resolved. I help couples accept this reality and adjust the way they talk about these issues. The masters of marriage have learned to talk about their problems without resorting to the four horsemen: criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, and contempt. Instead, they engage in a dialogue that builds understanding and connection when agreement is not possible.

Using these strategies can help couples resolve disagreements and maintain harmony in relationships. It’s about going from winning an argument to understanding and growing together, from conflicts to opportunities for connection. Marriage often involves significant changes and challenges over time.

How do you suggest couples can grow and adapt together through different life stages while maintaining a strong bond?

First, it’s essential for couples to realize that the problems they’re facing are unlikely to be entirely unique. Almost nothing is new under the sun. Therefore, I encourage my clients to learn from those with lived experience. Resist the temptation to rely solely on experts from the outset — this is especially true for overcontrolled people. Many issues couples face are compounded by the isolation they feel in dealing with these problems. Seek a community of people who have gone through similar experiences, and then supplement your learning with expert advice. This community support can provide invaluable insights and reassurance, helping couples feel less alone in their struggles.

Secondly, understand the power of discord. When navigated constructively, conflict can significantly strengthen relationships. Conflict exposes underlying issues, unmet needs, and differing perspectives, offering valuable opportunities for deeper understanding and growth. By addressing disagreements openly and empathetically, couples can develop better communication skills, build trust, and foster mutual respect. Working through challenges together reinforces the partnership, demonstrating a commitment to the relationship’s resilience and longevity. Ultimately, constructive discord can transform potential points of contention into catalysts for greater intimacy and a more robust, enduring connection. After all, growth and evolution often require an element of discomfort.

Finally, embrace a we-orientation. Your relationship is a vulnerable entity that needs protection, and it’s crucial to act as a warrior to safeguard it. This is especially important for men to hear. Many men perceive marriage as a loss of freedom, but true freedom is expressed in the power to choose — in this case, the choice to be married. Choosing to be married is a testament to one’s freedom. However, many men struggle with transitioning from a ‘me’ mindset to a ‘we’ mindset. This transition, which might include confronting the impulse to flee when life gets tough, is crucial for personal growth within the relationship.

Marriage can be seen as a spiritual practice; it’s challenging and sometimes grueling. Viewing marriage as a spiritual journey can help couples grow individually and together. Each partner serves as a mirror, reflecting both strengths and areas for improvement, encouraging self-awareness and inner transformation. The daily interactions and challenges within a marriage provide opportunities to practice virtues like patience, compassion, and forgiveness. By approaching marriage with mindfulness and a commitment to mutual spiritual development, couples can cultivate a deeper connection with each other and their higher selves. This transforms their union into a sacred journey of love and spiritual evolution.

In summary, by learning from others, embracing constructive conflict, and adopting a we-orientation, couples can grow and adapt through different life stages while maintaining a strong bond. These practices help couples navigate the inevitable changes and challenges of life, ensuring that their relationship remains dynamic, resilient, and deeply fulfilling.

Based on your research and writing, what practical advice would you offer to couples looking to strengthen their marriage? Are there specific habits or routines you recommend that can foster deeper connection and mutual support?

One piece of practical advice for couples is to be vulnerable and spontaneous. Letting go of rigid expectations and being present in the moment allows partners to rekindle their passion and connection. For example, rather than following a set schedule or predetermined models of how intimacy should occur, couples are encouraged to be spontaneous and responsive to one another’s cues. This approach creates a more authentic and joyful interaction that also reflects their core values of kindness, trust and respect, allowing intimacy to flourish.

One recommended practice from my book is the “love fire” exercise — partners build a campfire and label rocks with words representing their values — empathy, support, and communication. This tangible activity strengthens the emotional bond and serves as a daily reminder of their desire to continue a loving relationship. Also, regular check-ins where partners talk about their feelings and desires may promote emotional safety and understanding. Prioritizing these routines can help couples keep their relationship dynamic and resilient.

What are 5 Primary Points that you wish every couple knew and practiced? Please share a story or example for each.

Embrace Vulnerability. For intimacy to happen, vulnerability must be present. Couples who are open and vulnerable develop stronger relationships. Take for example John and Sarah, who were struggling with sex life. John was embarrassed to talk about his sexual desires for fear of judgment. By opening up and sharing his feelings with Sarah, he and Sarah became more intimate.

Prioritize Playfulness. Playfulness keeps the relationship interesting and dynamic. Couples should have spontaneous, fun activities that break the routine of daily life. Jane and Mike, for example, found their relationship routine and predictable. They added some playful activities like surprise date nights and silly games to rekindle their spark and bring them closer together.

Do Daily Acts of Kindness. Small, consistent acts of kindness can strengthen a relationship. These act of appreciation reinforce the bond. Maria and Alex started thanking each other every day with a compliment or a small gesture like making coffee in the morning. These small actions added up to a solid foundation of mutual respect and love.

Communicate Openly and Honestly. A healthy relationship is built on effective communication. The couples should attempt to convey their feelings and thoughts with no fear of retribution. Lisa and Tom, often misunderstood, began scheduling weekly check-ins to talk about their feelings and issues openly. This practice reduced conflicts and increased their emotional intimacy, allowing them to resolve issues before they escalated.

Establish Shared Goals and Values. Common goals and values can help couples navigate challenges and work toward a common vision. Emily and James were drifting apart due to their busy schedules and differing priorities. They discussed their individual and collective goals and created a vision board. This exercise helped them refocus their efforts and bring more purpose and unity to their relationship.

How do you reach couples with this message?

My book, along with my social media have been great outlets. People can also tune into my new podcast, Making Nice with Naughty where my friend and colleague, Dr. Francis Robbins and I discuss elements of my book.

Are you working on any exciting new projects now?

I’m working on a companion journal for my book.

Is there any particular book or concept that helped you overcome a turning point in a marriage?

Stoic philosophy, contemplative psychology, and Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT) intersect in emphasizing self-awareness, emotional regulation, and rational thinking. They provide indispensable information for maintaining a healthy marriage.

Stoic Philosophy teaches us to distinguish between the control and the uncontrollable. This perspective is essential in relationships, where many conflicts arise from trying to control our partner’s actions or reactions. Focusing on our own responses and attitudes may lead to a more accepting relationship. Stoicism also recommends accepting difficulties as opportunities for growth, forging strength and perseverance in the face of marital difficulties.

Contemplative Psychology stresses mindfulness and self-reflection, where people observe their thoughts and emotions without reaction. This practice helps couples understand each other and their inner worlds with compassion and understanding. With such a contemplative mindset, partners can respond to conflicts more calmly and clearly, turning potential disputes into opportunities for deeper connection and understanding.

Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT) was developed by Albert Ellis to identify and correct irrational beliefs that cause emotional distress. In the context of marriage, REBT may help people overcome unrealistic expectations and negative thoughts about partners. Couples who adopt more rational and constructive beliefs may avoid unnecessary conflicts and improve their emotional health. REBT teaches that our emotions are more driven by beliefs about events than by actual events so couples can have healthier, more positive relationships.

Together, these three approaches offer a framework for a successful marriage. They promote self-confidence, rational thought, and emotional regulation — all skills needed to manage a long-term relationship. Integrating these philosophies into daily life can help couples build more resilient bonds and a more fulfilling and harmonious partnership.

Other than your book, how are you using your success to bring goodness to the world?

Beyond my book, I plan to use my accomplishments to spread goodness in a few tangible ways to the world. For one, I am raising two teen sons who are the shining lights of my life. I’m so proud of the men that they’re becoming. They’re kind, compassionate, and caring while having healthy doses of competitiveness, leadership and self-confidence.

Secondly, I engage in community outreach and education. I offer workshops and seminars on healthy relationships, sexual wellness, and mental health. These events provide individuals and couples with tools and insights to improve their personal and relational health.

I also enjoy mentoring and professional development in psychotherapy. As an AASECT-certified Sex Therapist and Supervisor, I mentor and supervise new therapists in the art of clinical practice. By helping the next generation of therapists, I hope to make more people aware of high-quality mental health care and relationship support.

I also publish research and speak at conferences in academic and professional communities. My goal is to advance couple and family counseling through evidence-based practices and innovative approaches. Sharing knowledge and cooperation with other professionals elevates the standard of care and encourages continual improvement and learning.

Finally, I share my platform to spread compassion, acceptance, and growth. Through social networking, public speaking, and media appearances, I hope to empower people to build healthy, satisfying relationships and live lives with connection and meaning.

Aligning these efforts with the principles in my book, I am working toward a healthier, more connected, and more caring world.

None of us are able to achieve success without some help along the way. Is there a particular person or couple who you are grateful towards who helped get you to where you are? Can you share a story about that?

Many have contributed to my success; so many. It is difficult to name all of them. Most importantly, I want to thank Dr. Francis Robbins, who founded Neustart Psychiatry in Oregon. She’s been an incredible mentor and collaborator throughout my profession. Dr. Robbins has such knowledge and a compassionate approach to mental health that has impacted my own practice. Over the years, our professional partnership has inspired and grown. Her commitment to her patients and her approaches to entrepreneurship have defined a standard I try to meet in my own work.

More than a professional mentor, Dr. Robbins and her husband, Keith Robbins, have a model marriage for us all. Their relationship reflects mutual respect, support, and commitment. Seeing their interactions and reading their stories provided me with invaluable insights into what makes a marriage work. Their partnership is a testament to love, resilience, and common values and has shaped my views on relationships.

On an individual level, I am extremely grateful for my life partner, Kirstie Keill. Our relationship is spiritual. We grow together and bond over our willingness to face our fears and awkwardness. Kirstie has been an enormous support, encouragement, and love to me. She pushes me to be my best self and encourages me through the bad and good of my personal & professional life. Our journey together has taught me vulnerability, communication, and shared growth.

One story truly sticks out to me. I experienced a major professional setback during a challenging period in my career with a former business partner, where I really began questioning my direction. Dr. Robbins offered practical advice as well as emotional support. She reminded me of resilience and the value of every experience — good and bad — in shaping my professional journeys. At the same time, Kirstie was my rock at home: a listening ear and a comforting presence. With their support, I made it through this rough time, and I came out stronger and more determined.

Reflecting on these relationships brings to mind the effect of supporting, loving relationships throughout our lives. Dr. Robbins and Kirstie have been such an inspiration and support in my journey. Their presence has helped me achieve my professional objectives, personal development, and awareness of what it means to connect with other people.

You are a person of great influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. :-)

If I could inspire a movement that would do the most good to the most people, get everybody to take comedy improv classes. Improv helps people and relationships — especially marriages.

Improv cultivates quick thinking, active listening, and adaptability — skills essential for effective communication and problem-solving in relationships. In improv, participants learn “yes, and” — accepting each other’s ideas and expanding on them. This practice creates a positive dynamic by asking partners to be more open and receptive to each other’s feelings and thoughts.

The spontaneity and playfulness of improv allow couples to escape routine, conform to rigid expectations, and grow closer and closer. Through improv exercises, partners get to know other sides of themselves and find new ways to interact with one another. This practice may rekindle the flame in long-term relationships and keep the connection exciting.

Also, having laughs and light-hearted moments together in improv builds emotional bonds. Laughter can help reduce stress and bring people together. Couples who laugh together create positive shared experiences that buffer the challenges and conflicts of any relationship.

Improv also promotes vulnerability and trust. Participants must rely on one another to produce spontaneous scenes, a level of openness and confidence that can be translated into everyday interactions. This practice may help couples feel more comfortable speaking up and discussing issues honestly and openly.

Moreover, the lessons of improv — being present in the moment, accepting failures, and seeing challenges as opportunities for growth — are valuable for personal development and relationship health. Developing these attitudes may help individuals become more resilient, flexible, and compassionate partners.

So basically, improv classes are a safe and practical way to build the skills and attitudes that make up meaningful and lasting relationships. Promoting a movement to embrace comedy improv in our lives can improve communication, strengthen our bonds, and make life more joyful and supportive for everyone. Imagine a world where couples enjoy playful, creative activities that enrich their interactions. This movement may change relationships and communities by bringing more understanding, laughter, and love into the world.

Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quotes”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your lives?

“Don’t be careful, you might hurt yourself” by Byron Katie is profoundly relevant because it encourages couples to embrace vulnerability and take emotional risks. In relationships, being overly cautious can lead to emotional distance and missed opportunities for genuine connection. By allowing themselves to be open and honest, even at the risk of being hurt, couples can experience deeper intimacy and understanding. This approach fosters an environment where partners feel safe to express their true selves, leading to a more authentic and fulfilling marriage.

“Forgiveness is giving up all hope for a better past” by Lily Tomlin highlights the importance of letting go of past grievances to foster a healthier and more resilient relationship. Holding onto past mistakes and resentments can create a barrier to intimacy and growth within a marriage. By embracing forgiveness, couples can release the burden of unmet expectations and focus on building a positive future together. This shift in perspective allows partners to move forward with empathy and compassion, ultimately strengthening their bond and enhancing the quality of their relationship.

We are very blessed that some of the biggest names in Business, VC funding, Sports, and Entertainment read this column. Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would love to have a private breakfast or lunch with, and why? He or she might just see this if we tag them :-)

If I could share a personal lunch or breakfast with anybody on the planet, it would be Neil deGrasse Tyson. He would make a great dinner party guest! His knowledge is amazing, from the mysteries of the cosmos to science communication. Imagine the conversations and the curiosity he would create! Plus, he could explain such complex concepts in a relatable and entertaining way would make for a memorable meal. Imagine being able to explore the universe over coffee or a meal. Neil, in case you read through this — we need to make it happen — I guarantee the conversation will be out of this world! After all, with your expertise in the cosmos and mine is sex, our audiences are aiming for the same thing: an out-of-this-world experience.

How can our readers follow your work online?

IG @drtommurry

IG @apathtowellnessofficial

Tiktok @realdrtommurray

Facebook: @ apathtowellnessofficial

Youtube: @makingnicewithnaughty

Thank you so much for joining us. This was very inspirational.

About the Interviewer: At 79 years young, Nancy guides couples to transformative relationship skills, specializing in strategies for stepfamilies to succeed. Nancy brings her MA in Spiritual Psychology, personal experience and research proven strategies to guide couples to healthy communication skills and relationship happiness. Nancy has contributed to multiple media outlets including Huffington Post, Psych Central, and Woman’s Day magazine, to name a few. Nancy coaches in person, on Zoom, in her online courses at www.MillionaireMarriageClub.com , on “Relationship Rehab” TV and Talk and has authored eight books, including “How to Stay Married & Love It!” and “Stepping TwoGether: Building a Strong Stepfamily”. Nancy’s goal is to lower the divorce rate globally.