We Need to Have a Man to Man Chat

In March 2019, we had an amazing talk about sexism with (almost) all men from Creditas’ Product and Technology team.

It is a well-known and widely discussed fact that there are many more men than women in Technology teams. At Creditas, we are in a quest to change this situation. By 2018, we were able to bring 16 women to the team, and we now have a 25% proportion of women in Product and Technology, which is a good figure compared to the market average of 11%, but still low compared to what it should be.

But just hiring women is not enough: We have to make sure that they (and indeed all people in the team) work in a psychologically safe environment, have opportunities for growth and that there is no favoritism or prejudice on our team.

We spoke to all women in Product and Technology to find out how they perceived our environment, and we found out that even in a company like Creditas that values diversity, we still had problems and unpleasant situations. On one hand, this was obviously bad; but on the other hand, we could put in practice our #think-like-owners value and the philosophy that “If there’s a problem, you don’t need to switch to another company, you need to change this company.”

I called a meeting with all men from Product and Technology entitled “We need to have a man to man chat” and the description:

“Hey guys, I would like to host a discussion panel so that we can reflect on how healthy and equal our environment in Product and Technology is.”

About 80%-90% of the men from the team attended the meeting. We sat in a circle in our Arena and there were 80 men, with some curiosity/apprehension on what was about to come, including myself and the other organizers. “Will this go the way we intend to?”

My opening speech was as follows, and I spoke from the heart:

“Guys, I called you here to talk about this so we could have an open conversation and raise awareness. This is not a reprimand; we’ve had no serious incidents. Diversity is not only about bringing diverse people but creating an enabling environment for everyone.

I have never been very concerned about this, and it is easy not to worry when I´m not a minority in any area. I am a white, upper-class, heterosexual, cisgender man, born in São Paulo, I have always lived in “upper-class neighborhoods” and studied at private schools. I have never fought for a specific cause, and in many discussions I even adopt an exempt stance, but what I really value is a sense of justice, equality, transparency, honesty; and I believe these are values worth fighting for.

I’ll mix some personal and professional stuff here. I don’t want to intrude on your personal life, and I don’t think that is the company’s role. I would like Creditas to help you become better people, just as it has helped me, but I cannot demand this; all I can demand is adequate behavior in the workplace.

In my engineering class in university there were 5 girls out of 40 students, and the only concern was with their looks. It never even crossed my mind to consider what this environment was like for them, whether it was hostile, whether they felt right there, nothing like that.

Some sexist attitudes I have witnessed or heard about in corporate environments (and thinking only about minimally respectable companies, I won’t even get into sexual harassment, exchange of sexual favors for promotions, etc.):

• when a woman’s résumé was received, people would go on her Orkut profile to see if she was pretty;
• if there was a good-looking girl in a meeting room, people would call others to go meet her;
• lack of women in leadership positions;
• constant jokes about minorities;
• women in their thirties not hired because they would soon go on maternity leave;
• virtual groups to discuss the looks of women at the office.

I believe I have never actively exercised prejudice, but until recently I have never done anything to fight it, which makes me co-responsible. Either the world was very different back then, or I was too naive not to see these things, probably a little bit of both.

At Creditas I met people who truly opened my eyes: Camila, Barbara, Julia, Malu, Felipe, Ronaldo, Marcelo, Karol, Giulia, Ann.

What I aim for:

Everyone should have the same development and growth opportunities, and I want Creditas to be a safe and enjoyable environment for anyone, regardless of gender identity, race, color, sexual orientation, place of birth, school/college, neighborhood where they live, physical appearance, disability, past professional experience. Let differences be due to result, impact, effort, and not for any other reason.

So I ask all of you: do we have total equality today? Are there things in our environment that are not cool for women?”

Our Head of VIP (People) added an apology for using the word “guy” too often in a general presentation for the entire Tech team, especially in the sentence: “A guy has to be very good in order to work here.”

Our Engineering Manager, a change catalyst and leader in raising awareness of this kind of attitude in the company, stressed that real change only happens when majorities reprimand themselves about prejudice against minorities: when a white person tells another white person that they are being racist; and that men need to start fighting some behaviors and helping women have more voice. He also gave a clear example of racism he suffered in a bar recently for being black.

Then, we had a highly mature discussion, with people raising points, telling stories, or reflecting on points we had never considered. These were the highlights of the 90-minute conversation:

1) Reflections:

• Knowing that we as men sometimes make comments that sound harmless, and even familiar to us, but that greatly affect the way women around us feel;
• Much of our behavior has been reinforced throughout our lives, but the world has changed and we need to deconstruct this (“a real man picks lots of women,” “a real man drinks until passing out,” “a real man does not take insults,” “a real man knows how to fight,” “men don’t cry,” “this is a man’s thing,” etc.);
• Some have mentioned that they were raised in environments that were less open to diversity and experienced such great personal growth in Creditas that it was difficult to maintain friendships with people from their past and former mindset;
• Teaching is better than criticizing — the world is changing, and we don’t have all the answers; we have to be open to reflect on our behavior. Not everyone will change at the same pace, and we will all make mistakes at some point;
• One of the things we have to do besides just talking to women and asking them how they feel is really learning about it, studying and going after information;
• “Don’t women also become sexually attracted to men and flirt with them too?” Yes, but apart from the degree of rudeness not being the same, they are not comparable situations, as there is a great historical burden behind it. You cannot consider that a black man calling a white “whitey” is equal to the opposite situation; there is a burden of centuries of slavery that unbalances this comparison (a lot);
• Women hear catcalls on the street and get afraid (from the age of 14, in their school uniforms);
• Did you know that girls take longer paths not to walk in front of certain places, and if they do have to walk certain paths, they bow their heads and walk faster, knowing that they will hear nasty comments?

2) Practical tips:

It is not polite to comment on people’s looks or physical attributes (and in the context of this post, especially women’s), particularly in the workplace and/or with women around. The golden rule about comments: “Would you make this comment directly to the person?;”

Beware of the generalization of the “women” collective, because then individuality can be lost; in fact, this is not about thinking about how women would like to be treated, but rather how that specific woman would like to be treated. One person said that if he asked his wife to pay the restaurant bill, she would feel disrespected; whereas in other cases the opposite is true.

3) Stories:

• Have you noticed that when a man flirts with an accompanied woman, he apologizes to the man and not to the woman, as if the woman was the man’s property? This happened to one of the guys during Carnival, and he asked the man to apologize to his wife, not to him;
• One person asked the women on his team how sexist they thought he was, and they rated him 1 on a scale of 0 to 10; but his wife rated him 4 because she knows him better and more intimately;
• One person said that a friend of his made fun of him when he ordered a cocktail at a bar, and the following dialogue took place:

“Wow, man, sake caipirinha?! You’re full of estrogen now, are you?!”

“Damn, man, that’s sexist, isn’t it?”

“Sexist? Really? That drink is too weak, that’s all!”

“But here’s the thing, do you agree that you associated weak drinks with women and still camouflaged that relationship through estrogen — the hormone linked to ovulation in women? So, in fact, you are associating something considered weak, sweet or soft with women, but more than that, you are using it in a diminutive way, as if being sweet or soft is a bad thing. In the end, you were not even mocking me, just strengthening a stereotype that women are weak, soft and thus, generally, prefer this type of drink.”

“Dude, congratulations. I thought you were going to beat me up for nothing here, but it makes a lot of sense, I didn’t think about it that way. Thanks!”

4) Materials

The videos below were mentioned:

• We should all be feminists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyOubzfkjXE
• The movie “I am not an easy man:” https://www.netflix.com/title/80175421?s=i&trkid=13747225
• “My existence is the black cause.” The singer, rapper and songwriter Baco Exu do Blues opens the new Espelho season by declaring war on stereotypes that spread racist ideas. http://globosatplay.globo.com/canal-brasil/v/7452534/ (pt_BR)

5) Conclusions

• Some said they had never thought of these things and arranged conversations with the women on their teams the next day;
• The atmosphere was so welcoming that one person ended the conversation by talking about his homosexuality and that much of the violence against homosexual men comes from feminine appearance and fragility, not by homosexuality itself.

Can you imagine 80 men having this conversation at your company? Would it be a frank conversation with open people, or would the guys find it ridiculous and a waste of time?

We know the journey is a long one, and this was just the first step towards a more inclusive, diverse and safe environment for all. But we have to celebrate our victories, and that was a tremendous first step! I went home proud of the environment and people we have, and I consider that one of the happiest days of my 4 years at Creditas!

Interested in working with us? We’re always looking for people passionate about technology to join our crew! You can check out our openings here.

Interested in having a facilitator for this talk in your company? Please write me in Linkedin!

This post is also available in pt_BR: https://medium.com/creditas-tech/precisamos-falar-com-os-homens-f26bcf703d0a