Ep#4 — Sefer Soylemez, Philips Lighting

Our podcast series “The Future of Content” is where we probe into the future and try to make sense of how the media landscape could evolve, with some of the leading minds of this space.

For our fourth episode, we speak to Sefer Soylemez. Sefer is the director of global digital marketing for Philips Lighting. He has a rich background in digital native businesses having also previously worked with companies like Facebook and Nike on their digital strategies.

In this episode, we talk about the biggest changes he has seen within Phillips with the move to digital marketing, the role that Independent Publishers will play in the future of content distribution and the prerequisites for creating an effective content marketing strategy

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Ep#1 — Advait Gupt, Supari Studios
Ep#2 — Karl Katgara, Butter Media
Ep#3 — Devarsh Thaker, OML
Ep#4 — Sefer Soylemez, Phillips Lighting
Ep#5 — Shobhit Singhal, Hotstar

Episode references:
Soulskill website

Edited transcripts —

Hatim: Hello & welcome everyone wherever you are, in space or time. I have a very old friend joining me today on the Future of Content podcast with Soulskill. I am here with Sefer Soylemez. He is the Director of Digital Marketing for Philips Lighting, right here in Amsterdam, where I am currently travelling.

Sefer has been kind enough to share his insights on how the market is shaping up for content and digital marketing. So far, we have had many episodes with people in India, but what’s great about talking to Sefer is that he can share an international perspective and that too for a very large and very sophisticated brand.

So thanks a lot, Sefer. Really appreciate you taking the time to do this.

Sefer: Glad to be here Hatim. I am happy to do this. One thing I’d like to mention is that I’m not an ‘old’ friend. As in I’m not old in age, but yeah, we have known each other for quite a long time, more than 10 years now.

Hatim: Yes. Our friendship is very old, but we are very young, of course. To start off with, can you give a quick sense of what your current responsibilities are at Philips.

Sefer: I am mainly heading digital marketing and looking after some parts of e-commerce for B2B & B2C at Philips Lighting. I am overseeing all of the paid media globally.

Hatim: What has the biggest change in approach for the brand been now that things are digital. If you had to say something through your experience

Sefer: The main change — it’s an unknown — it is still an unknown. A lot of people in the Company know it’s important. We spend a lot of money on media & content. We create, we design, we publish, we measure but when you look at maturity, we are not at the level of where we would like to be. We are not at the level of Nike or Adidas- they are also manufacturers — and they are also brands. Especially in the B2B space, the change has been too much and too fast for us to keep up with maturity, people, capability and training we have. So, there is constant training and constant hand holdings. We want to ensure employees are more digital.

Hatim: Could you give an example of, in a pre-digital vs post-digital world what is the cycle for marketing. What are the challenges in making the shift from the old state to the new state?

Sefer: When you think about pre-digital, one of the main things that is important in both pre and post phases is distribution. When you have a big brand, you have better control over your sales, marketing, communication and it is difficult for your competition to come in and deal with such a big footprint across the globe.

With digital what has changed is that now failure is now an option. You can make failure very small, controlled and very cheap. Which means a lot of things when they become software on a screen can be controlled. You can have multiple tests, multiple messages, multiple products, multiple pricing points and that has been one of the changes that have been introduced in the process. How do we really test fast, learn fast and improve fast? Fail fast & make it better fast.

So that has been one of the main changes in the process when you think of again from ideation to manufacturing

Hatim: The slow long drawn product cycle which should have taken 1–2 years, especially in something like lighting that is so manufacturing heavy, you would say the cycle has shortened, not just for the product itself but also for marketing campaigns

Sefer: Yes indeed. And of course, the expectation of the customers are also different. When the expectations are different, when the channels that they spend their time on are different, when the way that they interact with the content is different, then you have to constantly look for different ways to stand out in the noisy world and that is one of the changes within the process.

Hatim: Correct and we are trying so many different things they are bound to fail. You cannot always get everything right the first time.

Sefer: It’s impossible.

Hatim: And just for organisations to develop acceptance of this fact, that especially on a digital medium you will try different things and not all of them will work out. I think that’s a very insightful way to say it. You are talking about Philips in Europe, but I think this reality is true anywhere in the world. I have spoken to some brands that are based in the US and definitely true for brand big like family conglomerates In India

The organizational culture is about “We don’t fail”. You have to get everything right and therefore will have this long-drawn process to make sure that everything is approved and pre-approved 10 times as we don’t want the potential for failure. Versus what a start-up does, it just accepts that I am going to fail half the time and I am going to try different things and what sticks on the wall sticks on the wall.

Sefer: Yes, so I think failure is an option and should be an option for each company, although of course, it requires a big mindset change. Failure should be an option, but fear should not be an option, that’s a very big difference. I believe that companies who will die are not actually those who fail, the ones that will die are actually the ones that are slow or afraid/ fearful in trying — in trying to figure out and admitting that we don’t know the answer, but we will figure it out.

That is the major difference between startups and corporations. Startups always have to start with I don’t know, but I will figure it out. In a corporation, it’s difficult to go to a manager and say hey I don’t know how to do this as it may be a career limiting move.

Also, when you think of corporations, they are process heavy. The reason for having a process is to multiply your success. And when you tell the corporation there is no formula for this success, it’s too difficult for them to adjust the way they are working.

That’s why when we are looking into our process, we are trying to add the test and iterate and learn and improve the cycle into the process so that it is accepted more within the corporation.

Otherwise, it is very difficult because you are process heavy and your process is there to multiply success and it’s very difficult to say that we have one video that is viral, but we cannot multiply it. So, failure should be an option fear should not.

Hatim: Coming back to start-ups and large brands and how Philips lighting is adapting to this new reality of DTC (Direct to consumer ) brands. Like we were discussing, distribution has become practically free. There is a possibility that there is a new start-up in, let’s say Belgium, where some smart kids have put together a lighting solution. What do you think is the better approach- to keep a large brand persona and maintain the trust and stability that comes with it or would you rather say it’s better to start behaving like this smaller rogue organisation

Sefer: By the way, distribution is definitely not free. I can tell you that. By distribution what I mean is a global footprint. It’s very different than distribution. Sure, you can sell lighting products. You can be a whiz kid in Brussels & get some lighting product from some Chinese manufacturer and sell it in Argentina, but when it breaks what’s going to happen? A global footprint is not easy to achieve. Making sure your customer gets the service when they need it is difficult to achieve. I know so many people who are using Apple not only because of the great on-screen experience but also because they can go to the Apple store & get anything fixed very fast & cheap. They trust the service. That’s the one thing that the global brands and companies have, that startups are going to take time to build.

Hatim: Any DTC brand as of today is going to always struggle to have this kind of a service footprint.

Sefer: Indeed, it’s going to be very difficult. They are trying to expand but it’s expensive, and they will need a lot of money to get there which will also take up more time. And within this timeframe brands are also learning to adapt to digital and using it go direct to consumer. Look at Heineken, they have their own e-commerce store where you can buy beer directly from Heineken and also a subscription model. They are trying to see what the right model is to have a better connection with the consumers.

Look at Unilever. They bought Dollar Shaving Club for a billion dollars last year. They are trying to figure out how to go to consumers. It will be very difficult for dollar shaving club to actually have the global footprint of Unilever. So now Unilever is going to try to figure out how to use their own global footprint and the knowledge of Dollar Shaving Club

So, I think brands and manufacturers are taking their time to get there. Some are taking too much time, which I think is not good, as the ones that will die are the slow ones, but you do see that a lot of them have the right mindset and they are trying to partner with startups and hiring from startups, acquiring like there is no tomorrow. They are trying to find a way for DTC actually work

Hatim: Coming to content and the branded content value chain. Maybe you can share, for more educational purposes, how you at Philips Lighting view content creation. We briefly spoke about how there is a funnel and there is different content that goes into different parts of the funnel. Could you talk about an initiative you did for a specific part of the funnel and why you chose that particular strategy?

Sefer: So, before I give you the examples, I think I want to tell a few prerequisites for content marketing that I think a lot of brands, companies & teams are missing. There are two capabilities that are dear to my heart and are very very important. One is analytics & the other one is user experience. To me, without having some kind of maturity in analytics and user experience it is not possible to achieve success in content marketing

Hatim: Are you specifically referring to content marketing?

Sefer: It can be expanded to marketing in general, especially in this digital age because the mediums are so different. Mobile requires glanceable information or content, desktop requires more in-depth content. When you think about UX, a lot of people think, UX is some pretty pictures, graphics. A lot of companies and people in companies still call it desktop publishing but on a foundational level UX is about desirability, credibility, usefulness, usability, accessibility & findability. You can already think where this is going with regards to content marketing or marketing.

It starts with understanding the customers, who is the customer, what are the needs of the customer, what are the problems of the customers when they are interacting with us or when they are looking for the solutions to the problems they have in hand. That is one of the pieces of UX when you actually do UX research around your customers. You need to identify the customer problems across the customer lifecycle and then you identify the gaps and opportunities for your brand.

Hatim: So, the content according to you has to fit into the same UX research, that goes into let’s say the product research itself. You understand your customer; you understand the life cycle of the customer & then you identify at what points the customer will need what type of content to make a buying decision.

Sefer: Yes, I think as products you mean software products so there are a lot of similarities. I always immediately start thinking of the hardware products, which is very different but definitely yes. I think it is a very similar process you have to go through to really understand what the actual problems of the customers with regard to the tasks they have in hand. Just as an example think about dental hygiene. Colgate could do great content marketing around dental hygiene without selling their product. And when people are actually having problems about dental hygiene and they search for it, regardless of where they are in the customer lifecycle journey, either when they are protecting it or when they have a problem or after an operation or when they are taking a selfie for their profile. They can start the journey at any stage and Colgate can definitely find out what kind of problems they are facing and create great content. And to be able to identify if you really need to do research. You really need to go into understanding who is the customer and what are the problems they have.

Hatim: Do research and be open to failure. Knowing that some of these things that you try for the first time may not fly.

Sefer: Most of them are not going to fly. So, content marketing is not difficult but also not very easy. You have to have the prerequisites, you have to have the analytics, you have to have the UX and the research done. Otherwise, it’s going to be a guessing game. It’s going to be very difficult. It is not easy as it's difficult to get the internal buy-in for content marketing. Because you are using a long-term marketing approach rather than short term sales driven approach. Content marketing is not mainly doing advertising and promotions to sell a product. You have to think about this as a long-term strategy which is very difficult to sell inside the company, that’s why it is not easy. But when you take the right steps, do your research, diligence and analytics really well and set up your goals and tests and iterations really well it is not that difficult.

Hatim: What I am inferring from what you are saying is you need to have these clear insights, when will your consumers be interested in consuming content.

Sefer: Not only interest but when they will interact with your brand. It may not be the interest, but they might interact with it. Image if I get a gift, some Sonos product as a gift. I haven’t gone through awareness, consideration, preference or purchase. None of those stages. My journey is going to start on a completely different path. So, I was not really interested in starting it, I was not really interested in the content of Sonos, but I got a gift. I need to figure out in a fast way how to use this product.

Hatim: And the funny this is, if Sonos does not have good content on how to start using it effectively you are going to have an unhappy customer for Sonos, and that person is going to tell his or her friends that Sonos doesn’t work

Sefer: Exactly and that’s why I think it is very important to understand the customer lifecycle, that problems and needs of the customers very well. They may start the journey from any part. We might have some party at home, and I might be playing some music on my Sonos and you might actually come and ask what kind of a product this is. The journey might start anywhere which is messy, of course, but without doing proper research you will not create the right content and not get proper success

Hatim: I am going to switch to a side question and ask you about the non-Amazons of the world, and I’m not talking about the Flipkarts or the Alibabas who also have a lot of money but let’s say an independent publisher who is trying to compete for attention with say Google, Facebook etc. And publishing as business as you know is going through a huge downturn. One of the ways that these publishers are going to try to generate a revenue stream is getting into merchandising

Let’s talk about independent publishers. When would you consider, as a Digital Marketing Manager of a large brand, to work with somebody outside of Google, Facebook & Amazon and what are the things that you look for to make a choice like that?

Sefer: One of the main things I have been pushing within Philips Lighting is ‘always on’. Brands should be ‘always on’ as your customers are going to be always on. A lot of brands and a lot of companies are creating big campaigns once or twice a year and some small seasonal campaigns like Back to School or Christmas or things like that. But I think to be able to win the mind space of consumers you have to be always on. But you cannot afford to be always on via Google or Facebook or Amazon. And the consumption of media from consumers is not only on Amazon or Google or Facebook. I think always on is insanely important. And some companies do it really well and some do not even think about it.

That’s when I think about the independent publishers, making sure that consumers know I exist as a brand and I do have relevant content that I can bring to them in search of a solution to their problem

For example, if somebody is looking into how to have better ambience while doing yoga in their room , I need to make sure that Philips Lighting is there with the right content to explain that we can create the right ambience for yoga, or for meditation or partying, for your kids when they are studying, for you when you are trying to fall asleep or wake up or when you want to have a modern or traditional look in your house. So, brands I think should use, and we do use, independent publishers for always-on content. And these independent publishers don’t have to be the top three or even the top five and can be very small forums or bloggers.

I’ll give you an example. We have a certain type of lighting that can make people feel calmer and we have done some research that suggests it helps mothers who have just had babies in calming the babies and the mothers. We contacted some bloggers that are in this niche space, that is only talking about mothers and babies and told them that they can use our research and information. They used the content we had created that amplified our message to those niche groups we were targeting. So, I think especially for niche groups, independent publishers over time are going to play a much bigger role because the curation they will do is more relevant for the people that are using those products. When you think of the curation of information that is being done by the big players, like Facebook, it’s quite raw. Right now, you have people saying the curation done by Facebook is not very good and prone to manipulation. So, I think it is going to be very important for independent publishers to show themselves as curation places for quality content.

Hatim: So, would you say that if a publisher is confident that they can build a nice audience, a differentiated audience then it makes sense.

Sefer: I think not only does it make sense, but they can also turn it into success and profit. At the end of the day, large publishers are going to work on systematically scalable content. Which means that the independent publishers can focus on the niche as its not systematically scalable for everything else. And they can differentiate the mediums they are using to reach the audience too. They can have meetups, face to face discussions, training which the big publishers cannot because they are generally creating content that is systematically scalable across all of the niches. If something works for everybody, it works for nobody.

Hatim: What do you feel about working with a publisher that is only using these social channels for distribution or would you rather work with a publisher that has their own platform. Buzzfeed is an example.

Sefer: I don’t think it matters, look at the boom in influencer marketing on Instagram. The influencers are using Instagram, not their own channels, but you see a lot of brands working with these influencers to reach the consumers

Hatim: So, a publisher of the future according to you, would just use whichever platform helps them reach their audience more effectively- independent of whether that platform is an Instagram, Facebook or YouTube.

Sefer: It is an uncomfortable thing to accept that you have to play by the rules of a platform owner and any day the platform owner may decide to kick you out. There are many examples of that on Facebook, Twitter, Reddit etc. Zynga for example. It's very uncomfortable for publishers. I think it’s because a lot of the rules for information and media on these platforms are being created by the Company itself. Regulation is not there yet. Giving all of you power to a medium.com or a facebook.com is very uncomfortable. I don’t know if and how politics is going to catch up in the next couple of years to create regulations for these platforms so that people are not being kicked out because of the way they speak and the way they bring information to the consumers. At this point, I would say If I were a publisher, I would not feel comfortable putting all my eggs in one basket. Of course, I need to amplify my message through different platforms. But until there are more regulations, I will not give all of my power to a third party.

Hatim: And as a brand for you, you will be more comfortable working for a publisher which is not completely dependent on other platforms? Purely with your brand hat on. How would you select a publisher?

Sefer: We have worked with publishers that have a presence only on certain platforms and we have worked with publishers who have their own platforms too. For example, we work with the Economist Intelligence Unit which is an independent publisher. They have their own platform, their own magazine too. We have done thought leadership campaigns & some really good work with them. There are others we have worked with specifically on Instagram & on Facebook. So, both sides.

Hatim: I think the key thing here is that what is the differentiation and what is the audience insight they can offer you as a brand that will make it viable. Is it the topicality or is it the demographics of the audience. What matters more to you?

Sefer: Topicality would come first. I don’t think demographics is the right way to pick your consumer I generally show a slide inside the company when I talk about segmentation. I show two empty areas, where the pictures should be and then the demographics of these people. Male, British, have two kids, influential, over the age of 50 and you would think that they would need similar things. And then I will show the pictures one is Prince Charles and the other one is Ozzy Osbourne. People then understand that it’s not just enough to have demographics

Hatim: Got it. Thanks a lot for that Sefer. I have really enjoyed this conversation & I hope you did too. Really appreciate you sharing your insight & maybe you’ll join us for season two next year.

Sefer: Yes definitely. Thank you very much